N17 Escher Epiphany

Discussion in 'Gangs & Loadout' started by Zayneth, Jan 11, 2018.

  1. Zayneth

    Zayneth Juve

    Fellow Escher gang leaders...have you been frustrated with the toxin rule? and how it only seems to be worth it on the needle portion of the combi-weapon? does the Chem-synth seem like a waste of points if it only benefits one weapon?

    well let me re-introduce you to the choke gas grenade. for the low low price of 2 juves (who needs more rookies?) you too can throw a grenade 9" that cause a toughness test. that's a 50/50 chance of hurting a goliath ganger. but wait...chem-synth works on gas...so that looks like a 66%(3+) chance on a goliath. and a 2+ on anyone else. even if you miss your hit roll its a blast so may just stay put, doesn't require a target, and reloads on a 4+.

    ive fallen in love with the tactic and plan to kit out several gangers with it. especially in the ZM realm.

    what are everyone elses thoughts?
    spafe likes this.
  2. Thorgor

    Thorgor Of The YAQ

    Choke gas grenades can never be reloaded (they have the Grenade trait if hand-thrown and the Limited trait with the launcher, and both traits prevent reloading (plus Limited means they will be lost forever if using a launcher))
    Also, they have an Ammo roll of 5+ (not 4+) meaning hand-thrown gas grenades have 2/3 chance to run out every time you throw one as Grenade weapons always have to make an Ammo check (vs. 1/9 with a launcher). This means you will get 1 or 2 shots max out of them most of the time.
    They do work with chem-synth, but you can't move and fire (or aim and fire) if you do that which coupled with a 9" range makes it impractical (plus,chem-synth aren't free).
    The fact that they are easily countered by a common 15 creds equipment is also something to consider.
    Also, gas doesn't pin, which is a shame for any template-based weapon.

    For the same cost as gas grenades + chem-synth, I'd take an extra lasgun ganger (unless I already have too many girls, none of my opponent can spare enough creds for respirators, and I have a grenade launcher)
    #2 Thorgor, Jan 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
  3. Zayneth

    Zayneth Juve

    yikes...I was just trying to share a cool thing I noticed. didn't realize it was complete and utter garbage and I should just but a grenade launcher and lasgirl >.>

    the ammo roll was what I had meant when I mentioned reloading. just got my terms mixed up some.

    I agree that a lasgun ganger has more straightforward basic benefit over chem-syth gas grenades, however I like the flavor and feel of being able to throw a grenade at the wall/ground ("bouncing it") and hitting models hiding around corners or behind too tall terrain. grenade launchers are amazing of course but take up a weapon slot and I prefer to build starting from the house lists because that's what the rules currently are in the book.
  4. Trafalgar Law

    Trafalgar Law Gang Hero

    As you've noted Gas weapons do a decent amount of damage but have several major drawbacks, first they don't pin, which means if you don't kill the target you're probably getting charged by an angry Goliath next turn, second they're too easily countered by a relatively cheap common item (that's on everybody's house list) and thirdly they're rather expensive considering the other two drawbacks. All in all they're not really worth taking at the moment.

    Respirators need to be moved from the house lists to a rare item and they need to pin. They'll probably still need a price reduction but would at least make them usable for more than the first couple of games of a campaign.
  5. Thorgor

    Thorgor Of The YAQ

    I agree with @Trafalgar Law. Gas and Toxin weapon really need a buff (well, Toxin needs to be fixed, but Gas is apparently working as intended and could use a buff).
    Respirators are a true problem. I really dislike this kind of design where all one faction has to do to invalidate the other one's strategy is to spend some currency. Making them a rare trade may be enough to fix it.

    It's a shame that Esher's house-specific weapons are so ineffective/overpriced. They are flavorful and fun to use but boringly efficient weapons are just way better atm.
    #5 Thorgor, Jan 11, 2018
    Last edited: Jan 11, 2018
    ThreeDice likes this.
  6. Zayneth

    Zayneth Juve

    I agree that respirators make my gas strategy more difficult. though to kit out a full gang of 10 with respirators is 150points. vs my 40-55(80-110) points of choke gas gear. so my thought process was to keep it almost like a psychological weapon. forcing respirator fighters to move to counter my gas.

    but in the line of efficient weapons, what do you guys think of frag grenades? obviously the launcher is the preferred delivery but I build strictly from house lists on initial build. Squirreling some grenades on a ganger seems to do the same psychological job but with more..."bang" for the buck

    apparently I really like the idea of throwing grenades around corners lol
  7. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Champion

    I'm considering replacing respirators with filter plugs in all house lists and removing respirators from the trading post. Why do flugs even exist with the respirator as good as it is? I get wysiwyg but respirators can be stashed in any small pouch on the model...
  8. Kairae

    Kairae Ganger

    I'd go the 'fix Respirators' and maybe reduce cost for Gas weapons over playing with how they actually function. I think Respirators at Rare(4) would solve a lot of the problems. I still think Flugs should be ~5pts due to 1 use only.

    Gas not pinning is actually interesting. It means that vs Sentries a failed hit doesn't run nearly as much risk of Raising the Alarm (any weapon with a Gunshroud that hits but fails to wound or only does a Flesh-wound will Pin the Target, potentially Raising the Alarm). Together with the way the Raising the Alarm rule treats Gas weapons ("Gas weapons... do not risk raising the alarm [from ranged attacks]") this means that have 0 chance of Raising the Alarm.

    There's been some dicussion on FB about the fact that Gas Weapons fit in a 'finisher' weapon category. Ie you use your cheap Lasguns to pin your opponent and then Gas Grenade vs the already pinned fighters (who you probably can't shoot anymore anyway). I think used in this way they're quite good. But you're better off with just a GL or Boltgun that does both simultaneously at their current price point and range.

    Given that Gunshrouds cost 20creds and Frag costs 30, 50 Creds for Choke Grenades sounds reasonable. There is, however, an argument that thrown Grenades should have their cost reduced across the board by between 5-10creds. (Given the advice usually is 'ignore Grenades to start, they're not worth it').

    Re: Choke Gas Grenades (ie the GL version). If you wanted to make these more viable for Escher (which is arguable) what I'd do is add them to the Escher HWL at the same discount Choke Grenades (the thrown version) get over the Trading Post (ie 10pts cheaper). This would make them Common, 25pts and Limited f or Escher.

    A GL with Choke + Krak grenades would be extremely good for Sabotage. Fire Choke before the alarm is raised (and don't have to worry about 'Click' and then Krak afterwards to take out the target).
  9. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Champion

    I'm thinking of house ruling gas to force a will power check or be pinned. Let's being an under used start in to prevent coughing fits...
  10. Kairae

    Kairae Ganger

    Not pinning can be a good thing. You just need to exploit it.
    Vonvilkee likes this.
  11. Vonvilkee

    Vonvilkee Gang Champion

    Silly phone... let's bring an under used stat in to prevent a coughing fit.
  12. Zayneth

    Zayneth Juve

    I hadn't even considered raising alarms! ive been doing small entry level games so sentries hasn't been on my list yet. but I love the idea of choking out some sentry ...or the sentry just kinda smelling something weird and wondering if he should have had that "bean" burrito for lunch.
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