N18 Escher List - anything to make it less cookie cutter?

[Torahn]

An Escher List that I wrote for a friend. He wants as many Toxin weapons as possible. I wrote the list on his behalf, but am looking for some suggestions on what could be altered to give it more variety.

Escher

Escher (HoB) gang with a rating of 1000 by Torahn

yaktribe.games

I was thinking that the two Needle Rifles are a bit samey - but the obvious choice because of their good stats and low cost. One could be swapped for a Grenade Launcher (for smoke grenades)?

On the Death Maiden a Venom Claw and Needle Pistol / Stub Pistol combo might be more interesting too. She already does plenty of damage with the two knives however. Though AP -2 might be overkill, and most of the time she kills whatever she charges, so entangle might be redundant. Spring Up also makes having a pistol as a backup pointless most of the time too.

Would giving the Wyld Runners two stub guns instead of spending those points on Stiletto Knives + Chem Synths be a smarter way to spend those credits? Doing so would free up the credits for a Venom Claw or Grenade Launcher. Or do away with the Wyld Runners entirely and instead just buy Little Sisters with 2x Stub Guns?

3 models in a starting gang with Spring Up is probably too many. But what're the alternatives? Combat Virtuoso paired with a whip might be interesting - if the model's losing the ability to get a charge off due to pinning, but still wants to be able to attack anyway. Otherwise a skill that adds +1 to Group Activations may be a generic buff, but I don't think its strong enough to make my opponent (who's used to the benefits of Spring Up) to be willing to trade it in.

 

[Heart of Storm]

I think a Death Maiden with venom claw/needle pistol would help mix this up a bit, adds some variety beyond spamming stiletto knives.

I'd typically recommend against Wyld Runners as knife/pistol models, sure the extra M is nice but a little sister does the same job as less than half the model cost.

If you want to be less cookie cutter id reduce the amount of knife models and try squeeze a chemthrower, or whatever the gas flamer is called, into the mix. Opens up a whole different set of chess whilst still fitting the theme.

 

[Torahn]

Thanks.

Aye, the Wyld Runners I think were originally there as extra models with toxin weapons. But yeah, if it were my gang Juves with dual or single pistols would be the better option. The 110 saving doing that however is too much to justify keeping the Wyld Runners.

Hadn't considered the Chem Thrower. A grenade launcher (along with its option to get chemical grenades via gas I believe) seems like the "obvious" option. 135 credits is probably a bit much though for this gang without changing its composition too much.

On the Death Maiden, two swords seems the recommendation - as it gives Parry 2. But that would lead to two models with the same weapons. So yeah, a claw + pistol on her would work. Or swap out the Queen's weapons to be something else? Plasma/ Bolt pistol and Power Sword perhaps?

This post's me asking for advice on my friend's behalf. I wrote the gang for him months ago, and that's what he's been sticking with. But I think it needs some tweaks. Ah, though he's adverse to changes (would rather just play what he knows), so I'm kind of looking for advice to justify things. We're looking to do a campaign, so any tweaks have to be done before that. Tsk, and unfortunately I've been fine to play around with different lists or changing rosters every week for skirmish games - and I haven't felt that Escher list is really robust enough to either counter various threats, or to vary up its tactics much (every game with the full roster plays the same, as the Escher don't have many tools to work with. In my own gangs I try and have many different weapons and skills).

 

[Lunarcruiser]

An Escher List that I wrote for a friend. He wants as many Toxin weapons as possible. I wrote the list on his behalf, but am looking for some suggestions on what could be altered to give it more variety.

Escher

Escher (HoB) gang with a rating of 1000 by Torahn

yaktribe.games

View attachment 176365

I was thinking that the two Needle Rifles are a bit samey - but the obvious choice because of their good stats and low cost. One could be swapped for a Grenade Launcher (for smoke grenades)?

On the Death Maiden a Venom Claw and Needle Pistol / Stub Pistol combo might be more interesting too. She already does plenty of damage with the two knives however. Though AP -2 might be overkill, and most of the time she kills whatever she charges, so entangle might be redundant. Spring Up also makes having a pistol as a backup pointless most of the time too.

Would giving the Wyld Runners two stub guns instead of spending those points on Stiletto Knives + Chem Synths be a smarter way to spend those credits? Doing so would free up the credits for a Venom Claw or Grenade Launcher. Or do away with the Wyld Runners entirely and instead just buy Little Sisters with 2x Stub Guns?

3 models in a starting gang with Spring Up is probably too many. But what're the alternatives? Combat Virtuoso paired with a whip might be interesting - if the model's losing the ability to get a charge off due to pinning, but still wants to be able to attack anyway. Otherwise a skill that adds +1 to Group Activations may be a generic buff, but I don't think its strong enough to make my opponent (who's used to the benefits of Spring Up) to be willing to trade it in.

Swap the Queens swords with the death maidens knives and give the maiden combat virtuoso instead. It turns the swords into S" versatile weapons and your death maiden into a murder tornado.
Toxin weapons lose effectiveness as gangs gain toughness but at a slower rate than gas as respirators are not effective against them. Get your friend some plasma weapon of some sort it will give the gang some good general purpose hurt.

 

[Jayward]

I'm going to assume that your friend is looking for the cool theme over the most efficient choices, but there are a few things that could tighten up the list whilst still giving it more variety.

First up, Wyld Runners in this context are really quite poor. Because they have such low INT they will only be able to get a Chem Synth to work 1/4 of the time; definitely not worth the credit cost. If you want a cheap melee toxin piece then give a Stiletto Knife and Stub Gun to a Little Sister. They're half the price and just as good in melee.

If you are really set on the Wyld Runners and Toxin then a Bow with Poison Arrows is an option. The bow is a terrible weapon, but it fits your guidelines of 'as many Toxin weapons as possible'. But in all these cases I'd drop the Chem Synth; you can always buy them later.

The Specialist is perfect; I pretty much always run something like this. Very cost efficient and effective.

It would be worth sounding out how your friend feels about Gas weapons as well; Choke Gas Grenades on the Grenade Launcher are delicious and have access to some great Chem Alchemies, but can be expensive to keep going. The Chem Thrower is honestly overpriced for what you get but can be super fun when it works. Also has good Chem Alchemies. If I had to pick one I'd definitely go for the Grenade Launcher on a Champion as it's an excellent weapon in its own right.

Another very good weapon is the Bolter-Needler. You've got the Needle Rifle that your friend wants, when it runs out you still have the excellent bolter, and the basic Escher box has a really cool looking one for the Queen. Highly recommend.

For the Death Maiden, don't sleep on the -2AP on the Venom Claw. It can be very impactful. The reason to take knives/swords over the Venom Claw is if you are going to take Combat Virtuoso, which will make it much easier to get into combat. But outside of that I would say that the Venom Claw is a better weapon.

So if you:

- Drop Stilleto Swords and Chem Synth for Bolter Needler on the Queen
- Drop Needle Rifle and Chem Synth for Grenade Launcher on the Matriarch
- Change one Wyld Runner to a Little Sister with a Stiletto Knife and Stub Gun
- Drop Stiletto Knife, Stub Gun and Chem Synth for Wyld Bow and Poison Arrows on the other

That should come to 965. You could use the remaining credits to give the Queen a Stiletto Sword, or consider things like Smoke/Photon grenades on the Little Sister.

Also, don't sleep on Throwing Knives. They're a very tidy Toxin weapon for 5c

 

[PalatineKatinka]

I'd drop the Chem-Synth from the Wyld Runners to free up creds for a start. With Int 9+ they aren't going to get much benefit from it anytime soon. Unless there's a plan to take advantage of the options Wyld Runners have, such as adding pets later, I'd consider switching them for Little Sisters. For sake of variety I'd consider giving one lasgun Sister an autogun instead, just because I like them even though they don't compete with the super discount lasguns. Fitting a shotgun in somewhere could be good too. They are handy early on for dealing with Champions.

Swap the Queens swords with the death maidens knives and give the maiden combat virtuoso instead. It turns the swords into S" versatile weapons and your death maiden into a murder tornado.

Combat Virtuoso works on Stiletto Knives as well so they could each have one of each, so the Queen doesn't lose out on both the Parries and still has some -1 AP attacks. Could even work in some narrative reason for why they'd have matching sets of sword and off-hand dagger, such as the Death Maiden being the Queen's dead twin or wife ('Wanted: Dead' with it's couple with matching knives as an engagement gift makes me wish Escher could get Master-Crafted Stiletto Knives off their own equipment lists. I don't get why House of Shadows gets them and House of Blades doesn't. /rant)

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Another very good weapon is the Bolter-Needler. You've got the Needle Rifle that your friend wants, when it runs out you still have the excellent bolter, and the basic Escher box has a really cool looking one for the Queen. Highly recommend.

First off I agree with all your other points but the admittedly cool looking combi bolter needler is a massive trap. The combi rules in general are massively punishing. As per Combi rules whenever you roll the ammo dice you have to roll two d6 and take the worst result. For a combi bolter needler both ammo values are 6+ so you will need to roll two sixes after every ammo roll to have working gun so you go from having a 1/6 chance of having a useful gun next turn to a 1/36 chance. Having two weapons a bolter and a needler only costs 10 credit more. I would only consider a combi autoguns or lasgun with a melta. It is almost always better to have the guns separate.
A shame because the Combi weapons look super cool.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Combi weapons would be a lot better if they added the words "for that profile" after it says " apply the worst result". Then the wording would separate the different weapons from a joint ammo fail. Sadly the double six will still be needed for a 6+ needler weapon but others would be better.

 

[Jayward]

Combi weapons would be a lot better if they added the words "for that profile" after it says " apply the worst result". Then the wording would separate the different weapons from a joint ammo fail. Sadly the double six will still be needed for a 6+ needler weapon but others would be better.

What do you mean here? The Combi trait specifically separates the different weapons from a joint ammo fail:

House of Blades p122:
However, unlike most weapons that have two profiles, ammo for the two parts of the combi-weapon are tracked separately - if one profile runs Out of Ammo, the other can still fire unless it has also run Out of Ammo

 

[SebbStrife]

Yeah, it’s the “worst dice result” not the worst profile’s ammo check. So you roll 2D6 and apply the lowest dice to the ammo profile of the weapon profile that was fired. E.g, you fire the melta of a combi bolter/melta, you’d need a 4+ on both dice, not a 6+ because of the bolter as you didn’t fire it. It’s quite clear.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

It's the wording "worst result". Not worst dice result either.
I do believe that they intend for the profile used to be the ammo value but that would not be the worst result as stated. They just needed to add the three words " for that profile" after that and there would be no grammatical ambiguity. Even adding the word "dice" would clear it up. Another case of GW not quite thinking writing through.

Also the bolter profile also has the combi rule so even when your Scarce needler is out of ammo you still need double 6 for every ammo check with the bolter profile.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Back to the original post. There are a few Xenos toxin weapons to consider as well. If you are up for the Black market or Cold Traders alliance.