N18 Escher - New Player, New Gang - Help me avoid obvious pitfalls!

[kingpash]

Hey folks,

New Necromunda player here (WFB & 40K vet of old), having a first go at pulling together and Escher list and want to see what the community thinks. Would like to avoid any glaring issues, so here it is:

Queen: Spring Up, Mesh Armour, Undersuit, Chainaxe, Plasma Pistol, Lasgun = 250c
Champ: Dodge, Mesh Armour, Plasma Gun, stubgun, Stilleto knife = 240c
Maiden: Combat Vituoso, Mesh Armour, Needle Pistol, Stilleto Sword, Throwing Knives, Chem-Syth = 205c
Specialist: Needle rifle, lasgun, Mesh Armour = 105c
2x Gang Sisters: lasguns = 2x 55c
Wee sister: autopistol = 30c
Wee sister: stubgun with dum dums = 30c
Wee sister: laspistol = 30c

Total = 1000c

Basically, I love the idea of the Death Maidens, love the idea of Toxins but also don't want to go too heavy into either and maintain some long-range firepower, all while maintaining a decent body count. A few things that i'm concerned about and would love some thoughts on:
- backup guns (Queen, Champ, Maiden, Specialist). I thought this was a decent backup piece, as i'm concerned that if their special weapons run dry, they are forced to combat-only or shy away from engagement. Looking around other lists, this doesn't seem to be a concern. Is running out of ammo so unlikely? Am I being too careful here?
- armour. I really don't like the idea of having Flak armour as a basic that you have to pay for. yes, it's better than nothing but with so many weapons having modifiers, it seems almost a waste, so i've gone with Mesh for those characters I actually want to keep alive and the rest... well, it's a short life in the Hive!
- grenades. Photon and smoke grenades seem to be all over the shop but having not played a game yet, I struggle to justify their cost in my gang. Am I missing a trick here? Are they really more of a standard, especially given the fragility of these ladies?
- Wyld Sisters & Catdogs (Phelynx). They look very cool but the stats are just horrible for the cost. Also, really don't like the idea that all you have to do is kill a 1W T3 lgihtly (or not at all) armoured ganger and any pets just dispensary, taking a large chunk of your points along with them. Is this the case or is there a trick here to using these gals? Isn't an equal amount of other Gangers just better?
- upgrade path. I really don't know how fast you get creds and what to even upgrade to after the first few games. I assume you start getting better armour and weapons, start thinking about Clan Chemysts etc. What sort of things should I consider as my priorities after the first few games?


Appreciate you folk reading this and looking forward to reading your replies!

 

[spafe]

Hmm, okay, initial thoughts on the list are:
Queen is good, like her setup. Primarily a combat character but a 5 cred lasgun to reach out is too good to pass up.
champ, I like less. generally utility pieces are not as good as specialist, pick a lane. I'd drop the stub and stilleto, give her a lasgun back up and give her spring up. It makes her good at shooting, once again, 5 cred lasgun is too good, esp as a plasma is scarce.
Maiden, solid, I like
Sisters, specialist is nice, I would get her a chem synth either at start or asap, others are couple of solid soldiers
wee sisters, personally I like getting them a stilletto to make the most of their ws4 and make them a potential threat that people cant ignore (they 'could' take out that multi wound champ rampaging around...do you really want to risk that?). Otherwise in terms of pistols, I prefer stubs as the +2 to hit at short range is very useful, or autos so in combat they could generate a number of hits.

backup guns

in general dont bother... for escher with a 5 cred lasgun, why not!

armour.

correct, mesh is good, flak is bad, only protect the important ones to start with.

grenades.

if you pick up a grenade launcher, pick up smokes to let you reload on a4+, otherwise, generally not worth investing in at the start. Some smokes or other fun ones when you have some creds to splash isnt bad, but not really a starting gang thing.

Wyld Sisters & Catdogs

you are correct in your analysis, they are bad. they are cool, which is why you take them, but for efficiency, they are bad.

upgrade path

I would suggest undersuit for the death maiden, chem synths on any and all toxin users. Personally I would then want a sister with a shotgun for some str 4 d2 fun. After that, another champ and/or death maiden as they are your best fighters. a Chem hanger on is not a bad choice either. Personally I view her as 'she generates d3x10 creds per game, you have that much money to pick up fancy chems at her discount (and if you pick single effect or the cheaper combos then her discount will amost auto make them the cheapest they can be)'. That way the fact that you have to rebuy chems each game isnt a thing, its a 75 or whatever cred outlay to have 'a few' chems each game.

Just my initial thoughts/responses, hope that helps a bit

 

[kingpash]

Brilliant, thank you for such a quick reply!

Glad to hear that my intuition was right on some points at least.

You're probably right on the hybrid capability of the Champ being a bit much. I wanted her to be primarily a good shooter, with an ability to chip in and take someone down if need be but maybe I should just concentrate one job and do that well. One of my next big character buys would likely be another Death Maiden, as I just love the idea, model, and stats for them. So that would provide me with plenty of combat punch, leaving the Champ to pick targets off from a distance.

Hadn't really considered the Wee Sisters as being bale to achieve much more than be a nuisance, provide extra activations, and maybe ping off some soft targets. Hence why I gave them a selection of soft, cheap options - to see what works and what I find useful. Concentrating on their WS does make sense now that I think about it and the threat of something so cheap and nasty being able to take out an expensive Champ (or a Goliath) is tempting. I'll have at think about it and see if I can spare the points.

Thanks again for your input, much appreciated.

 

[spafe]

Oh, one final thing to look to pick up is a stimm slug stash for the boss (any maybe the maidens, although with toxin unaffected by the str increase it is the movement you are really paying for). they are a nice tool to allow you to make that charge at key points.

 

[locleos]

I will say you tend to carry a lot of cultural weapons. At gang creation, if you're after power, a good rule of thumb is that you should only give each guy one (kind) of weapon.

Except for melee weapons and pistols, one of each cpombines well, and two melee weapons is also a good way to go (on actual good melee models, not on juves. Juves should go pistol & melee if you really want, but ideally just the pistol.

 

[Scabs]

It's never a bad thing to give an Escher a knife that ignores multiple wounds. I've had an Escher Champ holding a useless out of ammo Heavy Stubber and a backup stiletto knife get charged by a Goliath Leader (before they could genesmith toxin immunity). He flailed and she did not, and he went down. Oh, wait, he was saved by a Tactics Card! He later got to fight first, flailed again, and went down again. For good. Of course, I've been on the pointy end of said Stilletos, too. I do NOT routinely charge Escher Juves.

 

[locleos]

It's never a bad thing if you're comparing having nothing and having a stiletto knife. if you compare having 20 credits worth of something else, then yeah, that could indeed be pretty bad a lot of the time.

 

[ViolentN3on]

@spafe pretty much hit all the major points. One thing I'm going to be toying with is running Juves with either dual stubguns or dual autopistols. They'll be used as chaff eating bullets while my Queen and Maiden get into melee, and if they survive, they can then charge in as backup piling on. I just giggle at the chance a 1A 20 credit model (up to 40 wielding 2 autopistols) could have as many as 6ish hits. Sure they're only Str 3 hits, but still... or those with the stubguns give them dum-dum rounds that way they only have 1A (+1 for dual wielding) and being Str 4 is pretty nice as well.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Starting out give everyone some usable weapon (does not need to shine just function) Aim for a starting Crew size of ten if you can. give some gubbins to your Leader champion and Specialist. Sparse on everyone else they have to earn their armour and go. Toxin is powerful but swingy. High toughness is its bane and 2/6s of the time it does not disable the opponent so they can react back. also they allow armour saves. Pick a single attack mode for your Leader and Champions to start with. You have not got unlimited starting credits and you can always flesh out their capabilities later as you get used to them. Get the bodies you need get toys later.
Good starting list. I would skip the Lasgun on your specialist. Most missions that give rewards even if you lose and that 5 credit (off the top of my head) lasgun combined with even a low reward roll could be the difference between a suit of mesh which your, and most other starting gangs, will need as a priority to increase survivability early on. Even with punishing ammo rolls ammo checks happen fairly rarely.
Famous last words....

 

[mateyboy3000]

Aim for a starting Crew size of ten if you can.

While mathematically possible a starting crew of 10 is impractical unless you want nearly every member of the gang to run around un armoured and everyone with a pistol or cheap basic weapon and be unable to reliably kill anything. 7/8 is a much more practical aim for a starting gang.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Yep 7-8 is usually the best you can do. I did manage a 13 once with a outcast gang with a few kitted out leaders and champions and no regard for the Hive scums life span.

Good XP farm for their Goliath and Van Saar opponents though...

 

[locleos]

The way to hit 10 gangers is to run like 4 of them very very cheap. That's completely doable tbh.

 

[MrAndersson]

I think the most common pitfall for Escher is toxin. Which is a shame, seeing as it's kind of hardcoded into their theme.

 

[spafe]

But, toxin is good

 

[MrAndersson]

But, toxin is good

Not really. Or at least, Escher have access to options that are alot better than anything with toxin. And since there is anti-synergy between toxin and conventional weapons, it's better to leave it out of the gang completely.

I would say toxin is definitely a pitfall.

 

[spafe]

Not really.

A needle rifle is slightly shorter range than a boltgun, but has an exrtra ap, an extra +1 to hit at short range, can combine with drugs escher can make, is the same str (effectively), or stronger if you take a chem synth, and is cheaper. oh and it also doesnt care how many wounds you have, which can be nice against some of those 4W beasts the delaque and cawdor can bring.

How is that a pit fall?

On combat weapons... eh, there are so many I'm honestly not sure which you want to use and what you want to compare against, but the toxin claws on the ddeath maidens are solid choices, and personally I like the potential threat that even a juve becomes when armed with a toxin weapon.

Yeah, I would rather a webgun than a... toxin thrower thing (name eludes me now), but as a whole, toxin is very potent.

 

[kingpash]

Since this is my first venture into Necromunda and this is the same for the rest of our campaign crew, i'm comfortable to try out the less-than-definite super-efficient go-to's in interest of playing with something that seems cool (but won't make me regret taking them - like the Wyld bow peeps).

I've basically settled on starting on a solid footing with enough variety for me to try out the different mechanics in Necromunds (Toxin, grenades, close and long range weapons). I'm sure i'll learn some harsh lessons but that's the fun of trying out something new.

Thanks for keeping the discussion going. It's been interesting reading your responses.

 

[ViolentN3on]

Since this is my first venture into Necromunda and this is the same for the rest of our campaign crew, i'm comfortable to try out the less-than-definite super-efficient go-to's in interest of playing with something that seems cool (but won't make me regret taking them - like the Wyld bow peeps).

I've basically settled on starting on a solid footing with enough variety for me to try out the different mechanics in Necromunds (Toxin, grenades, close and long range weapons). I'm sure i'll learn some harsh lessons but that's the fun of trying out something new.

Thanks for keeping the discussion going. It's been interesting reading your responses.

Glad you've enjoyed! I agree 100% with @spafe that calling Toxin a "pitfall" is highly inaccurate. Having Claws (causing entangle making it harder for your opponent to hit back and unable to parry, what's not to like?!) or Swords (being able to parry) with Chemsynth on a Deathmaiden is pretty much an auto-take (for me). My local campaign I'm in right now is the first time I've tried a Needle Rifle and aside from the 6+ ammo check, it with Chemsynth is has helped me shut down potential charge lanes from my enemy for fear of their multi-wound models dropping before close combat. Hell, for 5 credits I can put a paralytic into my Needle Rifle that if I cause a wound, they then have to make a STR check or become paralyzed (effectively webbed). Then having a Stiletto on a Juve makes that guaranteed charge need a second thought.

I'd say the mistake is taking it on your leader and that's about it. Give her a Power Sword or something.

 

[locleos]

IMO toxin is fine but should probably be concentrated on a single model with a chemsynth at gang creation.

 

[MrAndersson]

A needle rifle is slightly shorter range than a boltgun, but has an exrtra ap, an extra +1 to hit at short range, can combine with drugs escher can make, is the same str (effectively), or stronger if you take a chem synth, and is cheaper. oh and it also doesnt care how many wounds you have, which can be nice against some of those 4W beasts the delaque and cawdor can bring.

How is that a pit fall?

On combat weapons... eh, there are so many I'm honestly not sure which you want to use and what you want to compare against, but the toxin claws on the ddeath maidens are solid choices, and personally I like the potential threat that even a juve becomes when armed with a toxin weapon.

Yeah, I would rather a webgun than a... toxin thrower thing (name eludes me now), but as a whole, toxin is very potent.

On the Needle rifle vs Boltgun comparison, you conveniently forgot to mention certain things.
Boltgun has Rapid fire (1), upping its damage output by a factor of 1.67.
Needle rifle has Scarce, which means that every shot has a 13.9% chance of being your last. So 1 game in 7 you are only getting a single shot with it.

Against targets with an abundance of wounds, Toxin can be useful, I will give you that. So if your local meta contains a lot of 4W fighters, then it might not be a pitfall.
But there is also a flipside to the Toxin damage system as well. Yes, it goes straight through wounds, but it can also never inflict more than one injury die. Let's say you shoot at a normal champion with 2W. On the first hit, both the Needle rifle and the Boltgun will roll one injury die. But every hit after that, the Boltgun will roll two, while the Needle rifle still only rolls one. And against 1W targets (which make up at least half of every gang), the Boltgun is always going to be superior.


For close combat weapons, Toxin is garbage. That is not because it is bad by itself, but because there are other option that blow Toxin (and most other cc weapons too) out of the water. For cheap weapons, nothing can beat the Boning sword. There is just no competition. And for when you are willing to spend more credits, a Heavy chain cleaver is simply the best weapon.
Now, there is probably going to be someone yelling "but those weapons aren't in the Escher list". Correct. That doesn't make Toxin weapons good, though. That just means that if you want the really good weapons, you need to wait until after your first game.


So, as a conclusion, I will amend my statement to the following:
Unless your meta contains a multitude of 3W+ fighters, Toxin is a pitfall.