N18 Escher - New Player, New Gang - Help me avoid obvious pitfalls!

Valid arguement for the needle rifle... I think I wouldnt consider it a pitfall weapon though, it has merits (cost, accuracy, ap, efficeny against 3 and 4 W fighters, abilty to be chem synthed, ability to use drugs on it) and cons (not flat d2, scarce (although bolter 6+ammo is hardly much better), no rapid fire), on balance I think the needle rifle is better. Of course it is also more limited being special against a bolter basic weapon. Come down to preference I feel rather than one being better than the other.

CCW wise... eh, I dont like your argument, as effectively what you're saying is no one (bar delaque web guantlets) should buy a cc weapon until after game 1 and buy exclusively boning sword and heavy chain cleaver. I dunno, I cant say from pure (PURE!!!!) efficiency you are wrong, but I dont feel like its good advice. And compared to 'most' combat weapons, the toxin offerings escher can get are well within the bell curve of acceptable options. Certianly not 'pitfall choices like a heavy flamer or combi needler (which is so point in efficient compared to its equivlants that arnt bolted together), or emperor forbid...a maul.

To be honest though, you have given good points for why they are not auto include, and to me it comes down to preference rather than obvious bad choices. Differences make the game more fun though rather than cookie cutter, so thats good :)
 
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Valid arguement for the needle rifle... I think I wouldnt consider it a pitfall weapon though, it has merits (cost, accuracy, ap, efficeny against 3 and 4 W fighters, abilty to be chem synthed, ability to use drugs on it) and cons (not flat d2, scarce (although bolter 6+ammo is hardly much better), no rapid fire), on balance I think the needle rifle is better. Of course it is also more limited being special against a bolter basic weapon. Come down to preference I feel rather than one being better than the other.

CCW wise... eh, I dont like your argument, as effectively what you're saying is no one (bar delaque web guantlets) should buy a cc weapon until after game 1 and buy exclusively boning sword and heavy chain cleaver. I dunno, I cant say from pure (PURE!!!!) efficiency you are wrong, but I dont feel like its good advice. And compared to 'most' combat weapons, the toxin offerings escher can get are well within the bell curve of acceptable options. Certianly not 'pitfall choices like a heavy flamer or combi needler (which is so point in efficient compared to its equivlants that arnt bolted together), or emperor forbid...a maul.

To be honest though, you have given good points for why they are not auto include, and to me it comes down to preference rather than obvious bad choices. Differences make the game more fun though rather than cookie cutter, so thats good :)
I will pretty much always take a needle rifle, on Escher, but then I always take a Boltgun as well... This discussion is needle rifle Vs Boltgun. I'm with @MrAndersson here I'll go Boltgun on a champ. But on a Specialist ganger the choice at 30cr price bracket is between Needler and Shotgun.. here I like the Needle rifle. That +2 at close range (or any once I get telescopic sights) is worth it, especially if you have a 4+BS to start with, if you don't hit that extra damage is redundant.

Ok yes I will actually try to get both a needle rifle and a Shotgun if I can. Variety is spice..

But no it's not a pitfall on the needle rifle but another tool in the box. I don't want needle rifles all round but it's good to have one for that odd 3W Orlock leader. (Not much use on Brutes as they are often High T)

Boning sword isn't on the latest Trading post by GW. (hopefully an intentional ommission) so you can't buy it after one game anyway. And good riddance it ruled most other CC weapons redundant. That's an argument against Boning swords not toxin.
With the high Damage you can do from multiple attacks these days toxin seems less necessary in CC on champs I'd say. I'm set in my ways and models so I still run the odd stilleto knives on juves, I've had a couple of hilarious successes with them, but a few suicides too so not sure if they're optimum, but certainly fun.

Buying from trading post is costly in opportunity. Actually cost for cost Of rather equip my juve with a regular sword than a stilleto toxin weapon but I'm unlikely to waste a rare trade equipping my Juves when I have key stuff like heavy weapons and armour to source for my champs. So what is on the house list does matter. Also on buying after 1st game, I don't run empty hands for first campaign game because it's arguably the most vital match of the campaign.
 
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A death maiden is fine with toxin. They kill most things they touch anyways, and if they don't, then, well, they are against something that is probly gonna kill them right back
Yes, this is exactly why you want to maximize your chances of taking whoever you charge out of action in one round of attacks. And that is why Heavy chain cleaver is such a good close combat weapon. And why toxin melee weapons are bad (by comparison).
 
Yes, this is exactly why you want to maximize your chances of taking whoever you charge out of action in one round of attacks. And that is why Heavy chain cleaver is such a good close combat weapon. And why toxin melee weapons are bad (by comparison).
If your going to bring CGC weapons into it there is just no comparison the hcc and boning sword are both disgusting for the price tag. You also heavily run the risk of being 'that guy' of you exclusively run these weapons on people that can take them because of this fact
 
Yes, that is exactly what I am saying.

And that makes the opportunity cost of bringing toxin weapons really high. Which is why I consider them a pitfall.
I should clarify there is no comparison to ANY ccw in their price ranges. If you say 'take one of the CGC weapons' you are basically saying here is the min max weapon never take any other weapon
 
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I should clarify there is no comparison to ANY ccw in their price ranges. If you say 'take one of the CGC weapons' you are basically saying here is the min max weapon never take any other weapon
What do you guys use as a definitive trading post? Because the most recent GW trading post PDF does not include CGC or Enforcer weapons. That relegates them to faction specific weapons which seems sensible to me.

I know there's a few more items missing from book of peril etc.. but that's best considered an optional expansion. Obvs you can include whatever you want but looking at RAW the pdf would be considered the current trading post surely?
 
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I should clarify there is no comparison to ANY ccw in their price ranges.
I agree. That still does not make toxin good.

If you say 'take one of the CGC weapons' you are basically saying here is the min max weapon never take any other weapon
I am not telling you to take anything. I am saying that toxin melee weapons are a pitfall, since there are weapons in the game that are objectively better (by a huge margin).

You are allowed to take any weapons you want, good or bad ones alike. But the OP asked for the pitfalls in Escher gang building, presumably because he wants to avoid them. So I answered. I genuinely believe toxin is a pitfall, especially when it comes to melee weapons. And I have delivered a number of facts and arguments in this thread that backs up my position.

If you like toxin and want to use it, go ahead. No one is stopping you. But if you ask me, I think it's a pitfall, for the reasons I have stated in this thread.
 
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I agree. That still does not make toxin good.


I am not telling you to take anything. I am saying that toxin melee weapons are a pitfall, since there are weapons in the game that are objectively better (by a huge margin).

You are allowed to take any weapons you want, good or bad ones alike. But the OP asked for the pitfalls in Escher gang building, presumably because he wants to avoid them. So I answered. I genuinely believe toxin is a pitfall, especially when it comes to melee weapons. And I have delivered a number of facts and arguments in this thread that backs up my position.

If you like toxin and want to use it, go ahead. No one is stopping you. But if you ask me, I think it's a pitfall, for the reasons I have stated in this thread.
A dead horse. You're beating it.

We saw your opinion posts ago and every post since you've reiterated it.
That being said, your "amazing" alternatives are CGC weapons that aren't currently available in the trading post per @spafe 's reference above. If your local meta allows all weapons on a trading post at all times. I get it.
You've delivered a number of speculative "facts" that may or may not be relevant overall or locally meta wise. You're entitled to your opinion, as is everyone else who posted.

Perhaps a better way for your posts and stances to be perceived is something like "I believe toxin melee weapons are a pitfall, mileage may vary."


The above post that I quoted for my reply essentially boils down to "I'm not telling you not to take anything, but I think this, and you're entitled to your wrong opinion if you disagree."


We heard you the first 4+ posts.

I'm sorry if this is a bit snarky, but I've not had the negative experience you're listing as a "pitfall" my local meta also uses the current Trading Post and unless you're CGC, you don't have access to the items you keep saying are amazing. Your opinion of Toxin does not make it a "fact" that it's a pitfall.

To the OP, I apologize for my part of exacerbating this.
 
Just do the math yourself, it's not hard. You will see that a fighter with a boltgun has roughly double the damage output per cost as a fighter with a needle rifle.
 
Just do the math yourself, it's not hard. You will see that a fighter with a boltgun has roughly double the damage output per cost as a fighter with a needle rifle.

Its more swingy, so yes you will blast gangers away easier, but once armour gets better, wounds go up and T increases it drops off.

against an orlock (for example) ganger, you are right, roughly twice as effective (although the jump in accuracy makes it a bit more swingy for the bolter to be an all or nothing weapon), but as soon as you factor in say... a goliath (or any T4) champ with mesh and armoured undersuit (hardly an uncommon setup), then a bolter is less effective than a chem sythned needle rifle. and yes yes when that champ recovers to a flesh wound and you shoot him again, the bolter flat d2 is better, but honestly, unless you are going to run only boltguns and grenade launchers with a few boning swords on the combat characters, the needle rifle is really very comparable, and has situations (not uncommon or rare situations, just... situations) where it is more effective.

I'm almost thinking you are just trolling at this point given you cannot concede that there is some merits to toxin enough to not claim they are a pitfall. out of curiousity, how do you view...combi weapons? the 'power' section of ccw? etc etc. your sole arguement seems to be that a bolter is the most efficient weapon (or the boning sword for ccw), at which point by logical extension, every weapon in the game that isnt them is a pitfall?
 
I'm almost thinking you are just trolling at this point given you cannot concede that there is some merits to toxin enough to not claim they are a pitfall. out of curiousity, how do you view...combi weapons? the 'power' section of ccw? etc etc. your sole arguement seems to be that a bolter is the most efficient weapon (or the boning sword for ccw), at which point by logical extension, every weapon in the game that isnt them is a pitfall?
I am trolling because I use math instead of anecdotal "evidence" to evaluate weapons?

I don't see it in as black-and-white as you imply. All weapons exist somewhere on a spectrum from worst to best. If we are to judge if something is a pitfall, we would have to draw a line somewhere on that scale, and that is obviously arbitrary. But I would say that if a weapon is sufficiently far from the 'best' end of the spectrum so that there are enough viable weapons above it, then it would be a pitfall.

But, in the case of toxin weapons in particular, since there is anti-synergy between them and conventional weapons, that draws them down even more.

Now, I have admitted that toxin might be a useful tool to deal with 3w+ fighters. Might be, I haven't run the numbers yet.
 
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I am trolling because I use math instead of anecdotal "evidence" to evaluate weapons?
yes, because I just replied saying the math doesnt back that up, I wasnt using anecdotal 'evidence' as you say, I was applying that math to very forseeable situations, and against champs its not as good. Not 3W champs, a regular 2 W champ, with regular defensive loadout.

And for how close it is to a bolter, I cant see how it is 'sufficiently far from the best' that you call it a pitfall. And what is the whole 'anti synergy' you refer to? you have fast moving juves who can coup de gra easily (not m4 goliaths for example).
 
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The anti-synergy is that they don't inflict wounds, which means that if you hurt a multi-wound enemy with toxin, but don't take them out, you will still need to "chew through" their wounds when you fire at them with conventional weapons.

It is always better to fire only conventional or only toxin at any given enemy. Mixing leads to that anti-synergy kicking in.
 
I really want to end this discussion but I feel obligated to point out that the very anti synergy you describe can be a huge synergy when employed correctly.

Let's take a hotshot Las line with a needle rifle specialist because hotshot Las lines are a good escher strategy. They're trying to engage a T5 ambot (or any other T5 multi wound model, which brutes like to be), everything wounds on 5's but if the needle rifle goes through, which it is more likely to than the lasguns because it has extra Ap. regardless of the result on the injury die the Las line will now wound said target on 4's without having to chew through 3 wounds first
 
Let's take a hotshot Las line with a needle rifle specialist because hotshot Las lines are a good escher strategy. They're trying to engage a T5 ambot (or any other T5 multi wound model, which brutes like to be), everything wounds on 5's but if the needle rifle goes through, which it is more likely to than the lasguns because it has extra Ap. regardless of the result on the injury die the Las line will now wound said target on 4's without having to chew through 3 wounds first
I already conceeded that if there is an abundance of 3W+ enemies, toxin can potentially be useful.

But what you describe above is not a synergy. Lowering enemy toughness by dishing out flesh wounds is just as applicable to any other weapon as it is to toxin. In fact, it is a perfect example of the anti-synergy I was talking about. After that initial hit, you still need to make three successful hits with lasguns before you start rolling injury dice. Against an ambot, it would be much better to just use grenade launchers from the start. On the second hit, you roll two injury dice, and if it's not dead by then, you can bring in the lasguns. And a grenade launcher has a much better chance of actually wounding the guy in the first place.
 
It's not a synergy because it can be done with any weapon in the game, not just needle rifles.

In fact, there are weapons that have much better chances of giving out flesh wounds, if that's what you are after. An autogun with rad rounds, for example.
 
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