N18 Escher - New Player, New Gang - Help me avoid obvious pitfalls!

[spafe]

It's not a synergy because it can be done with any weapon in the game, not just needle rifles.

In fact, there are weapons that have much better chances of giving out flesh wounds, if that's what you are after. An autogun with rad rounds, for example.

Okay, this is honestly my last response to this, anyone else who reads the topic will be able to review both cases and make their own call. Its clear you have very defined view on this so further discussion is a bit pointless.

However, I think you are (intentionally or not) misunderstanding the idea of this synergy. It cannot be done by 'any weapon in the game' because a toxin weapon will bypass the wounds, inflict the flesh wound, allowing the other weapons to work better BEFORE having to remove those wounds. It can be done by select other weapons, such as rad rounds, but thats not the point, the point is, there is demonstrable synergy between needle rifle and hot shot lasguns. MORE synergy than with a grenade launcher firing krak, because you example of firing krak rounds, it might knock wounds off, but wont help the follow up hotshot lasguns get any wounding hits until after its 2nd successful shot.

Also, yes you 'conceded' against 3W characters, but I explained further up that the needle rifle is better against 2W as well at times which you ignored.

Anyway, I'm not interested in convincing you, I think there has been enough debate here to show new players that it is not clear cut which is better, but that needle rifles and toxin isnt a clear pitfall, so they can decide where they want to fall on this.

 

[MrAndersson]

I know I can come off as unconvinceable, but I am not. It takes a good argument to convince me, though, and so far the only legitimate argument in favor of toxin that has been presented in this thread is the 3W+ one.

I emplore you to do the math yourself. You will see the difference.

 

[spafe]

okay, I said I wouldnt reply, but this is quick:

I emplore you to do the math yourself. You will see the difference.

I did, (hence why this post is quick, I'm jsut copying it in).

Boltgun shooting a T4 2W champ with mesh armour in short range in light cover:
1.6 shots, half hit, half wound, 1 in 6 save. 0.33 injury dice
1.6*0.5*0.5*0.84=0.33

Chem synthed needle rifile shooting the same:
1 shot, 2 thirds hit, 2 thrids wound, no save, 0.44 injury dice
1*0.67*0.67*1=0.44

Anyway, I'm done.

 

[MrAndersson]

Boltgun shooting a T4 2W champ with mesh armour in short range in light cover:
1.6 shots, half hit, half wound, 1 in 6 save. 0.33 injury dice
1.6*0.5*0.5*0.84=0.33

Chem synthed needle rifile shooting the same:
1 shot, 2 thirds hit, 2 thrids wound, no save, 0.44 injury dice
1*0.67*0.67*1=0.44

I'm sorry to drag this out, but this I have to address. Because it's just plain misleading.

You have deliberately chosen the one specific set of circumstances that speaks for your point of view, and ignored everything else. Your math only work for the first shot on a target and only within 9". Outside of 9", needle rifle loses its +2 to hit, so its damage output drops significantly. And on the second shot (and all subsequent shots), the damage output of boltgun DOUBLES. As well as making all other conventional weapons do more damage, by removing that first wound, which the needle rifle doesn't (again, the anti-synergy).

You have also failed to take into account that chem-synth needs a successful intelligence roll to work.


The real math looks like this:

On the first shot:

Range​	Needle rifle​	Boltgun​
1”-9”​	0.398​	0.347​
9”-12”​	0.199​	0.347​
12”-18”​	0.199​	0.231​
18”-24”​	0.000​	0.231​

On every subsequent shot:

Range​	Needle rifle​	Boltgun​
1”-9”​	0.398​	0.694​
9”-12”​	0.199​	0.694​
12”-18”​	0.199​	0.463​
18”-24”​	0.000​	0.463​

You can see that the needle rifle only has a small advantage at very close range and at the very first wounding hit. In every other scenario, the boltgun blows it out of the water.

 

[locleos]

Boltguns are the most powerful basic weapon, news at 11.

Actually, I think you should show up with a sign outside the home of every ranged weapon that has the audacity to not be the boltgun.

 

[Heart of Storm]

I cant help but feel that spreadsheetmunda is a very boring and samey game.

Its also worth pointing out that just because a weapon isn't the most optimally effective on a spreadsheet doesnt make it a "pitfall" needle rifles are cheaper than boltguns, benefit from chem synths and work better against multi-wound models. Its a different tool for a different job than the boltgun.

Pitfall weapons are things that sound cool and are universally terrible at everything they do, throwing knives, digital lasers, heavy flamers and the like. Needle rifles, particularly for Escher, don't fall into this bracket as they have a function, which is a cheap special weapon used to kill champions, leaders and brutes.

 

[MysticWolf]

What do you guys use as a definitive trading post? Because the most recent GW trading post PDF does not include CGC or Enforcer weapons. That relegates them to faction specific weapons which seems sensible to me.

I know there's a few more items missing from book of peril etc.. but that's best considered an optional expansion. Obvs you can include whatever you want but looking at RAW the pdf would be considered the current trading post surely?

The Trading Post PDF that was released excludes the CGC and Enforcer weapons because they're book specific additions to the TP. AKA you need to buy The Book of Ruin for the stats, they aren't just posted on the PDF. It's a way of keeping The Books fo Judgement and Ruin relevant and required.

 

[locleos]

Enforcer weapons don't get a rarity in book of ruin anyways though, but the corpsegrinder weapons do.

 

[Mr. M]

@spafe and @MrAndersson : I have to say, your debate was a pleasure to read. I have a terrible head for math (heck, I even thought a 1 on a D3 was... no, no that way lies trouble if not insanity), and seeing you two work through the statistical arguments was enlightening. I also appreciated how more than just simplified scenarios were considered, like your discussion on synergies with other weapons and impacts beyond just a single attack action and its resolution. You gentlemen set a fine example of cooler heads prevailing over frayed tempers, and the result was a wonderful analysis. It was a nice bit of class in an internet where it sorely lacks. Thank you both.

 

[MrAndersson]

I am glad to see people appreciating a good debate.

I must say that, overall, this site ranks really high in terms of quality of discussion. I have participated in a lot of different gaming forums over the years, and it's hard to find one where you can have an actual conversation at a decent level.

That being said, though, there is still some anecdotal "evidence" and other unsupported argumentation going on here, and I hope you can all help me to remedy that by not accepting statements like "X is good because I played it once and it worked". Be ready to always back up your claims, and ask that others do the same.

 

[Bracer]

I'd just like to add that i love a good debate, and the internet is all too hostile to this sort of thing and punishes progress.

Personally, i'd like to see a list made by MrAnderson, but from this point of view:
Needle rifles are specifically there as anti-character tools. And what mix of chems and drugs and stuff you'd use.

The side i come down on is probably spafe. Not because your quantitative analysis is wrong, but because your qualitative analysis is lacking... just a little. The game exists in phases im told, and in the middle to end phase there is allot of T4 walking around. You cant just enter Valhalla and automatically have a full complement of (whatever designer weapon you choose) for dealing with them. In my view it seems for a cheap gun, the needle rifle is ok at dealing with the propensity of risks that will appear until you can equip with a backup boltgun or GL or something. So yes, lets see your list so we can decide how many risks it mitigates. It will at least educate me as a new escher player.

 

[locleos]

dammit, this had all the hallmarks of a start of a feud spanning years and dozens of unrelated threads

And now you've gone and become all civil

 

[spafe]

And now you've gone and become all civil

It is how we roll on the tribe!

 

[kingpash]

Wow, you stop monitoring a thread for a few weeks and you come back to a ream of spreadsheets and nuances.

As the Gavrilo Princep of this feud, i hearby apologise for pulling the trigger on this boltneedler

 

[Exodite]

I find myself demanding a revisit considering the Combi Bolter/Needler...

(No, not really.)

 

[Stompzilla]

Combi bolter/ needler is great.

If a Bolter rolls an ammo check it is almost certainly going to become an expensive club for the rest of the game, whereas the combi needler lets you fight on. Obviously you can't put that into a spreadsheet but therein lies the pitfall of relying on probability calculations (Also, due to the low number of dice involved and the effect of variance on the averages, spreadsheets and probability calculations are much less useful in a game like Necromunda than in a mass battle game like 40K, where the number of dice and hence variance is much higher/lower).

 

[spafe]

If a Bolter rolls an ammo check it is almost certainly going to become an expensive club for the rest of the game, whereas the combi needler lets you fight on

If thats the worry...buy a bolter and a needler. They are both better off and its cheaper. Yes it uses an extra weapon slot, but so what, one combat weapon is enough with 3 A on the boss, and shes the only one I'd really want to be duel purpose.

 

[Exodite]

I apologize profusely for even making that joke because now, Dark Gods help us all, I feel compelled to jump in.

@Stompzilla I generally agree regarding the value of theorycrafting re: Necromunda. While I do thoroughly enjoy the math exercises myself, and do rely on them to gauge balance issues, the swingy nature of the game really does help shore up some of the worst mechanical imbalances.

You also put your thumb on the one positive I myself see with the Combi-Bolter/Needler, a weapon I'd happily pick it up and heartily recommend because it's cool! That said I don't think mildly improved reliability is a good reason to go with the weapon, when looking at it a bit closer.

@spafe Went were I would too, though I'd probably settle for a Bolter and Lasgun for an Escher gang. It saves 20cr on the Combi-weapon and 30cr on the discrete weapons while being a much more reliable backup weapon than either.

Or, if 20cr isn't a big deal either way, just go for the Plasma Gun. It's more powerful than both the Bolter and Needler and offers roughly the same reliability as a Combi-Bolter/Needler anyway. (Also, decidedly not cool! )

However.. as this thread has amply demonstrated already it's truly pointless to try and hyper-optimize for every possible situation - that way madness lies. At some point you just have to YOLO and pick one of many roughly equal choices. That's when I, speaking only for myself mind you, would rate cool factor (and how good the model looks) higher than marginal mechanical advantages.

YMMV!

To try and get back on track I'll just say I'm in a similar situation to the OP in that I'm putting together an Escher gang myself, for the first time in a while, and the discussions have been very helpful.

 

[Stompzilla]

If thats the worry...buy a bolter and a needler. They are both better off and its cheaper. Yes it uses an extra weapon slot, but so what, one combat weapon is enough with 3 A on the boss, and shes the only one I'd really want to be duel purpose.

Not a bad shout! I didn't realise that the difference in cost was only 10 creds when I wrote that.

Honestly though, I think I'd still rather have the combi weapon, with a melee and a pistol for the flexibility (Again, something that you can't put into a spreadsheet). Although the statline on the base needler is much better than that of the combi needler....

Hmmmm....

 

[king_pash]

Ok, so i'm back (under a slightly different username - got locked out of the old one). Wanted to let you guys know how our campaign is coming along, now that we are half-way through and gearing up for the second half.

My campaign success can be summed up as - brutal!

In a campaign with four other new guys playing Delaque, Goliaths, Cawdor, and Van Saar, the Escher Hell's Belles lead the camping on every trackable milestone and have a big juicy target painted on their back as a result. I look forward to fiercely protecting my ill-gotten gains in the second half of our Dominion campaign and claw my way to some sort of notable victory in one category or the other. My gang after half-time now looks like this:

“Acid” Nix Queen Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 5 3 3 3 4 2 2 3 6 5 6 7 310 2 6 No W:❑❑ FW: ❑❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Plasma Pistol, Lasgun, Armored undersuit, Mesh Armor, Chainaxe, Uphive Raiments, Lobo Chip (Mundane Cl), Stimm - Ice Cold, Stimm - Night Night, Skills: Spring up Rules: Gang Hierarchy (Leader), Group Activation (2), Tools of the Trade
	“Toxic” Roxie Matriarch Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 5 3 2 3 3 2 2 2 6 6 6 6 285 1 2 No W:❑❑ FW: ❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Stiletto Knife, Stub Gun, Plasma Gun, Mesh Armor, Stimm - Night Night, Skills: Dodge Rules: Gang Hierarchy (Champion), Group Activation (1), Tools of the Trade
	“Venom” Vedma Deathmaiden Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 7 2 3 3 5 2 2 3 8 4 7 7 265 3 1 No W:❑❑ FW: ❑❑❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Stiletto Sword, Chem-synth, Mesh Armor, Needle Pistol, Throwing Knives, Stimm - Bad Blood, Stimm - Night Night, Skills: Combat Virtuoso, Spring up Rules: Gang Hierarchy (Champion), Poison Blood, Tools of the Trade
	"Big Badass" Betty Matriarch Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 5 3 3 3 3 2 2 2 6 6 6 6 255 0 0 No W:❑❑ FW: ❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Grenade Launcher w/Frag+Krak, Mesh Armor, Stimm - Ice Cold, Stimm - Night Night, Mastercrafted Grenadebolter, Skills: Spring up Rules: Gang Hierarchy (Champion), Group Activation (1), Tools of the Trade
	“Baba” Yaga Deathmaiden Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 6 2 3 3 4 2 2 3 8 4 7 7 220 0 4 No W:❑❑ FW: ❑❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Armored undersuit, Mesh Armor, Hazard Suit, Needle Pistol, Venom Claw, Stimm - Bad Blood, Stimm - Night Night, Skills: Spring up Rules: Gang Hierarchy (Champion), Poison Blood, Tools of the Trade
	“Chem” Jynx Sister (Specialist) Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 5 4 3 3 3 1 3 1 7 7 7 7 125 1 1 No FW: ❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Lasgun, Mesh Armor, Needle Rifle, Rules: Gang Fighter (Ganger), Tools of the Trade
	“Mad” Donna Sister Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 6 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 7 7 7 7 65 1 4 No FW: ❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Lasgun, Rules: Gang Fighter (Ganger), Promotion (Specialist)
	“Hex” Bex Sister Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 5 4 4 3 3 1 3 1 7 7 7 7 55 0 5 No FW: ❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Lasgun, Rules: Gang Fighter (Ganger), Promotion (Specialist)
	“Poison” Trix Little Sister Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 6 4 5 3 3 1 3 1 8 8 8 8 40 1 1 No FW: ❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Laspistol, Rules: Fast Learner, Gang Fighter (Juve), Promotion (Specialist)
	“Stikki” Vikki Little Sister Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 6 4 5 3 3 1 3 1 8 8 8 8 80 1 2 No FW: ❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Autopistol, Gaseous - Expansive, Gaseous - Pyrophoric, Rules: Fast Learner, Gang Fighter (Juve), Promotion (Specialist)
	“Skinsuit” Siouxie Little Sister Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 6 4 5 3 3 1 3 1 8 8 8 8 40 1 5 No FW: ❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Stub Gun, Dum-Dum Ammo, Rules: Fast Learner, Gang Fighter (Juve), Promotion (Specialist)
	“Rub a dub dub” Mrs Scrub Little Sister Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 6 4 6 3 3 1 3 1 8 8 8 8 55 1 2 No FW: ❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Autopistol, Photon Flash Grenade, Rules: Fast Learner, Gang Fighter (Juve), Promotion (Specialist)
	"Gee Gee" Unit Ambot Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 4 3 5 5 5 3 5 2 8 6 8 9 215 0 0 No W:❑❑❑ FW: ❑❑❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Carapace Armor - Light, Tunneling Claw, Skills: Infiltrate Rules: Cranial Governors, Excavation Automata, Valuable
	"Smokey" Dokey Apprentice Clan Chymist Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 5 5 5 2 3 1 3 1 7 8 8 6 75 0 0 No FW: ❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Needle Pistol, Skills: Fixer Rules: Experimental Elixirs, Last Rites
	"Mystique Whisper Merchant Kills ❑❑❑❑❑	M WS BS S T W I A Ld Cl Wil Int Cost Adv XP Starving 5 5 4 3 3 1 3 1 9 7 8 5 60 0 0 No FW: ❑❑❑ OOA:❑ Rec:❑	Wargear: Stub Gun, Skills: Lie Low Rules: Useful Lies

Gang stats are as follows:

Gang Info
Gang Type	Escher (HoB)
Credits	14
Meat	0
Campaign	Nelly's Campaign Backup
Gang Rating:	2305
Reputation	16
Wealth	2319
Alliance	None
Allegiance	Order

Territories

Settlement

Fighting Pit

Mine Workings

Narco Den

Needle Ways

Sludge Sea

Basically, i concentrated on gaining items and territories that gain me credits and slowly proceeded to get my nasty Chems into combat. Granted, i've often gone overboard but when you get 4 decent mixes for around 50-60c, it's considerably worth it to keep your girls in the game.

Our campaign members are finding Toxins to be a hindrance, even though I have listed the copious amount of ways to mitigate their effects. Becuase at this stage we still don't have a everyone with decent armour, I have managed to stay ahead of the game in some matches and use Toxins to great effect. My key players have very much been my Deathmaiden Vedma and Toxic Roxie, the Plasma Champ. I am looking forward to augmenting my team with the fresh arrival of a mastercrafted combi bolter/grenade launcher champ Betty and her little friend Gee Gee the Ambot.

Roll on 2nd half