N18 Exotic Beasts Questions

[Sarkazym]

I think the source of a lot of the confusion is that pets are not independent models, they are wargear that happens to have a model.
They don't have their own ready marker.

To me, the rule is the exact opposite of this. This is where I am confused, and have decided to try and figure it out before I even address the Overseer/Pet interaction.
"They are purchased as Wargear, but they will have their own Fighter Card" (N23 p.86)
''Exotic Beasts follow all the normal rules for a fighter, with the following exceptions:" (N23 p.87 / HoS p. 47)

Wargear doesn't gain tokens, but they follow all the rules for Fighters. I'm taking this to mean that they are treated like Fighters first, instead of picking when they are a fighter, or they are Wargear.

- They can ONLY be activated when their owner activates. They do not get to activate like a normal fighter.
- If the owner is removed, all of the Exotic Beasts are also removed. They do not get to stay like a normal fighter.
- They are not counted for Bottle Tests, part of the Starting Crew, and aren't counted OOA, or Prone/Serious Injured. Fighters don't count them as fellow fighters for this.
- They only trigger nerve tests for other Beasts unlike normal fighters who'd trigger the test for everyone.
- They cannot help with Recovery Rolls like a normal fighter.
** Although if a pet is ever released with an ability allowing it to help w/recovery rolls, Im making Cyber St. Bernard with a barrel around it's neck.
- They can be captured, rescued and sold like a fighter but can't be sent to work like a fighter.
- When it comes to XP, you not only treat them as a fighter, but you treat them as a Ganger. So you're not gaining any skills until you become a specialist. Like a Fighter.
** This is one that confused me as a new player since I only saw the Available skills for advancement thinking that was all that was available not understanding that the stat increases are more likely to happen when they do level up. It was a minor question I had that not worried about because we're not doing any XP yet. I'm just including it here for completeness. This could be important because should a pet be lucky enough to survive, he can become more independent if he gets his CL up.

Following that Logic we get to two of the issues.

1 - (Resolved) Unlike a normal fighter, they have to take Nerve Check when they end their activation outside of 3" of their owner, which isn't a trigger for a normal fighter. This also comes with special rules for when they become broken, which differs from what a normal fighter would do.
** This is one where I flipped the application to Wargear, and not treat it like a fighter. I was under the impression that when they Broke, they just gained a broken token since they've already activated, and just followed the rules for Broken during subsequent activations, and not the current one. When I went back and treated them as fighters FIRST, I then realized that they would immediately break and Run for Cover(D). It's still unclear if their activation ends before or after the Test is resolved, but since it all falls under 'end of activation' I can see the case for auto-rally at the end of the Run for Cover(D) action. No XP for this.

2 - (Unresolved) Without a listed exemption, it appears that they would gain a Ready Token like a Fighter would. 'During the priority phase, all models receive a Ready Token' (N23 p.67).

This is where you appear to flip back to treating them as Wargear, relying solely on the 'Group Activation (Exotic Beasts) rule to allow them to activate instead of treating them like a model, and giving them a ready token. There is ZERO conflict here in 99% of normal circumstances, where once a handler activates and removes his ready token, the pets would also activate in turn and remove their ready tokens. Like a normal fighter would during their activation. So far this makes sense. (I'll come back to this.)

They always activate with their owner (no range limit).

You made a connection here that I simply didn't until I went back and looked at it. I followed the Logic of treating pets as fighters when applying the Group Activation(X) Rule. So like fighters, I was taking the Group Activation(X) and treating Group Activation(Exotic Beasts) as exemptions to that rule. When looking at it like that, there is no exemption to the 3" activation rule listed in Group Activation(Exotic Beasts) so was unable to make the connection of how you got to the unlimited range.

Instead I copied/treated them as independent rules that function the same with the simplified applications.
- Group Activation(X) Only X friendly models within 3" activate with the model. Cannot use Group Activation(X) if activated this way.
- Group Activation(Exotic Beasts) All attached Wargear activates with the model with no range restriction. Can be used on it's own or with Group Activation(x) Friendly/Unfriendly isn't a requirement for activation, but might apply to other abilities.
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If we treat the Pets as fighters FIRST this leaves a few situational holes, which to me now make sense but they sit outside 'what normally happens'.
- During the Rally step of the End Phase do they count for +1 when helping other models, like a normal fighter would.
** "I'm scared, thank the Emperor that this Cybernetic Mutant Sump Rat with a Bomb on it is here give me confidence!"
- In the now VERY unlikely event that a Pet is STILL outside of leash range during the End Phase, they can still attempt to rally like a normal fighter since there is no exemption limiting them to rallying while in leash range. Like a normal fighter, they should get the +1 from friendly models. If they rally this way, I see no reason to prevent them from getting the XP. I just simply don't see it happening often enough to be an issue either way.
- I'm still new, and I'm not sure if there is anything that causes a model to lose it's ready marker before it's activation. If your interpretation is correct, then Pets would be immune to those effects when the Handler activates anyways, and that's something that fighters can't do.
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Overseer is where the big WTF seems to come in. It's really what prompted all of this, because I had no idea of how pets worked normally before trying to come up with some repeatable tactics. So I went back, read all the rules, and when I watched the Batreps, there were some glaring inconsistencies. Going further down the rabbit hole to forum discussions I can see that I'm not the only one who's confused.

To me Overseer is more like a chain of events
1 - Overseer model Activates.
2 - Overseer model uses Order(D) and takes a LD test.
3 - If the test is passed, then it may pick a friendly fighter within 6". This can be any normal fighter. Pets are not exempt, and can be targeted.
4 - Order(D) then gives 2 actions to that model. These must be used immediately on the affected model, like an activation. Now that I'm re-reading it, it doesn't actually appear to activate the model, which is why it doesn't remove a ready marker, and works on models without a ready marker.

When it comes down to Handlers/Pets, I now strongly believe the following statements are correct:
- Since it's granting actions, and not an actual activation, Group Activation(Exotic Beasts) does not trigger. It's a rule, not an action. That is reserved for when the handler activates. I now believe that a handler who receives these Actions do so without their pet. This should be used to move ahead of the pets so that they can easily avoid getting off their Leash when they do activate.
- For the Psykers, like Delaque, this could be used as an additional attempt to get a Continuous effect off which causes problems with the timing if done before the model activates, but that's a different discussion. The point is that these actions don't appear to trigger any pets, or even Group Activation(X).
- Pets can be targeted by Overseer since they can meet all the criteria. Despite being Wargear, they are a friendly fighter within 6". They don't need the handler to use these actions since they're not actually being activated, so can do their thing even without their handler. What makes this very uncomfortable to see is that a player could slingshot the pet way out of leash range, then go further when it actually activates before having to make a Nerve Check. Or it could go out after it has activated and not have to test until it activates during the next round.
- The REAL question here is how THAT interacts with Continuous effects. If done before the handler activates, does the Continuous effect expire? Range is only a requirement during Casting, not when it comes to maintaining. Does it drop when the node goes outside of 12"? Is it game breaking to have a pet off leash knowing it doesn't have to test because it has already activated.

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None of the Arbiters have much experience with Pets, as I'm not only the first one to play Delaque, I'm also the first one to plan on using pets as part of my strategy in every game, so they're all kind of looking to me to figure it out, playtest the different 'solutions' before we make any decision before the league starts. I think I've got a pretty strong case for playing it like above. We'll see how it goes.

 

[HugeSamples]

I'm not seeing rule where fighter immediately run for cover when becoming broken. It's possible it was changed or my group has been playing it wrong forever. So you are right when a pet breaks being out of leash range, it will just sit there.

 

[HugeSamples]

page 87 says

Exotic Beasts can only be activated as part of a group activation with their owner...

Overseer says:
Make a leadership test for this model. If passed, pick a friendly fighter within 6". That fighter can immediately make 2 actions as though it were their turn to activate, even if they are not ready. If they are ready, these actions do not remove their ready maker.

I guess you would treat the beast like another fighter.

the question is if you use it on the owner does it activate the pets as well? "as though it were there turn to activate" is pretty vague.

If they do get to activate the pet like they normally would it'd be silly to use it on the pet.

I'm inclined to say it just gives 2 actions to another model, pet or otherwise, to use right now.

 

[Sarkazym]

I'm not seeing rule where fighter immediately run for cover when becoming broken. It's possible it was changed or my group has been playing it wrong forever. So you are right when a pet breaks being out of leash range, it will just sit there.

No, you're right. I found it, but apparently it's just been moved. I was only looking at the rule on P.67, where I came to my original conclusion. Look under Nerve Tests on P.128

 

[Sarkazym]

The question is if you use it on the owner does it activate the pets as well? "as though it were there turn to activate" is pretty vague.

Yes it is, and it's easy to say that it activates a model a second time because that's the same effect.

When you change the wording to reflect that though it starts to break down.
'If the test is passed, then select a friendly fighter model and immediately activate them, even if they don't have a Ready marker. If they are Ready, these actions do not remove that Ready Marker' (And models with Ready markers are the ones that can be selected to activate).

See how that simple change alters the whole dynamic. I honestly believe that this over-simplified interpretation is why even experienced players are struggling with the interaction. It doesn't function the same way when there are other activation triggers. I'm still not sure I've figured it all out yet, but I feel a further along than where I was with it all.

Can you Imagine a Specialist with Overseer and a Leader with the Skill that adds one to the Group Activation. The Specialist would Overseer the Leader, who would active 3+ Himself, and keep his ready marker, move to the other group. Then activate another 3+ Himself on his second activation? It would almost defeat the alternating activation mechanic, but potentially devastating if it goes wrong. I simply wouldn't be allowed.

 

[HugeSamples]

thinking out loud here, but if you remove the owners ready token somehow--via blind or some effect--you effectively remove the pet's ready token too.

So it might be fair that pets are not included in things that effect ready markers?

It's also a bit strange that a pet would listen to someone other than their owner barking orders at them. e.g. overseer.

 

[HugeSamples]

'If the test is passed, then select a friendly fighter model and immediately activate them, even if they don't have a Ready marker. If they are Ready, these actions do not remove that Ready Marker' (And models with Ready markers are the ones that can be selected to activate).

even with this wording it's still wonky with pets since they can only be activated when their owner is?

 

[HugeSamples]

lol man pets aren't that good to be worth all this rules gymnastics .

 

[HugeSamples]

I very much appreciate this conversation as I'm planning on making a cat heavy escher gang in the near future .

 

[Sarkazym]

Thinking out loud here, but if you remove the owners ready token somehow--via blind or some effect--you effectively remove the pet's ready token too.

I was thinking the same thing, but it makes more sense to have the pet affected by something like that, rather than being better than a fighter and being immune to it simply because the handler chose to activate after. Just my thoughts on it.

It's also a bit strange that a pet would listen to someone other than their owner barking orders at them. e.g. overseer.

This also crossed my mind from a Narrative perspective. The only counter argument I can think of is Riddick. Esp in the 2nd one. I now see an Overseer to be more like him. 'Do this and do it now!' vs. 'We need you to do what you think is best right now.' When they were climbing up the rock wall and he command Keira to move it, she's ready when he has to jump in unlike the others who weren't the target of his Statement. When it comes to Pets, he had that power over the Cats in the Prison even though he wasn't their keeper.

 

[HugeSamples]

Can you Imagine a Specialist with Overseer and a Leader with the Skill that adds one to the Group Activation. The Specialist would Overseer the Leader, who would active 3+ Himself, and keep his ready marker, move to the other group. Then activate another 3+ Himself on his second activation? It would almost defeat the alternating activation mechanic, but potentially devastating if it goes wrong. I simply wouldn't be allowed.

I don't think this would work for a few reasons:
- only leaders have access to the leadership skill tree.
- you only ever have one leader.
- group activations need to be declared at the start of "your turn".

 

[Sarkazym]

even with this wording it's still wonky with pets since they can only be activated when their owner is?

Yes, but it would allow Pets to activate twice which I struggle with that being the intent. It would also open the door to poorly worded tactics, if any. If there was an action that gave an addition action when a model activates, getting a second activation could be brutal.

lol man pets aren't that good to be worth all this rules gymnastics .
I very much appreciate this conversation as I'm planning on making a cat heavy escher gang in the near future.

I've enjoyed the conversation as well. To me it's not about making pets good or not. I simply don't see the Delaque ones surviving long enough to gain anything special. It is about understanding how they work before I form any bad habits. I'm not trying to dictate how a player uses them but I see them as pretty good.

I like the concept of pet heavy Gangs. I watched an Escher game where he was down to 3 models, but they all had Cats. 3 Fighters makes them resilient to bottle tests and you still have a full complement of participating fighters to be a threat. The Group Activation is what limited him, with his opponent able to address being outnumbered by out activating them.

I don't think this would work for a few reasons:
- only leaders have access to the leadership skill tree.
- you only ever have one leader.
- group activations need to be declared at the start of "your turn".

It wouldn't be a starting gang tactic. Just a specialist using XP to acquire the skill down the line. Group Activations are done when the Fighter with the rule is activated. (p.101). Both Group Activations remove Ready markers as they go down the line.

 

[HugeSamples]

I simply don't see the Delaque ones surviving long enough to gain anything special

I wouldn't worry about the delaque pet leveling. it advances randomly. as long as it doesn't "die", it will do it's job (being a node).

 

[Aulenback]

1. Per the rules as written, the "leash" aspect of their rules is checked at the end of their activation. Not before, not at the beginning, not during. IF at the end of their activation they are too far away (typically 3" but it can vary by pet), THEN you make a test for them, and IF they fail that test, THEN they immediately (despite having already activated) break and run for the "cover" that is their handler, and IF they reach leash range to their handler, THEN they automatically rally (but gain no experience for succeeding in a test to rally).

Strangely, it's actually clear in the RaW (in the N23 edition of the rules, at least - that 2023 Core Rule Book). [Rules being clear seems a rarity worth celebrating?]

Exotic Beasts follow all of the normal rules for a fighter, with the following exceptions:
• Whenever the fighter that owns the Exotic Beast is selected for a scenario, the Exotic Beast may also be deployed. This may take the number of fighters in a starting crew above the number specified by the scenario.
• Exotic Beasts may not perform any action that interacts with objects on the battlefield with the following exceptions:- An Exotic Beast with a Strength characteristic of at least 4 may perform the Carry Loot Casket (Simple), Force Door (Basic) and Smash Open Loot Casket (Basic) actions.- An Exotic Beast with an Intelligence characteristic of at least 7+ may perform the Operate Door (Simple) action.- An Exotic Beast with an Intelligence characteristic of at least 5+ may perform the Access Terminal (Basic) and Bypass Loot Casket Lock (Basic) actions.
• Exotic Beasts cannot assist fighters when rolling for Recovery.
• Exotic Beasts can only be activated as part of a Group Activation with their owner. Accordingly, the owner of an Exotic Beast gains the following special rule:
- Group Activation (Exotic Beasts): When a fighter with this special rule is activated, their controlling player must activate all Exotic Beasts belonging to this fighter as well, as part of a ‘Group Activation’:
- The controlling player selects and activates each fighter in this group activation as normal, fully resolving each activation before selecting and activating the next. Each fighter activates individually; groups do not activate simultaneously.- If this fighter itself is activated as part of a Group Activation, this rule still applies, meaning any Exotic Beasts this fighter owns are activated as described above when this fighter is itself activated as part of a Group Activation.
• Exotic Beasts must always end their activation within 3" of their owner. If the Exotic Beast is more than 3" away at the end of its activation, it must pass a Nerve test or become Broken.
[• If the test is passed, nothing happens.
• If the test is failed, the fighter becomes Broken. Place a Broken marker on their Fighter card to indicate that the fighter is subject to the Broken condition:
- As soon as a fighter becomes Broken, they will immediately activate (even if they have already been activated this round) and make a Running for Cover (Double) action as described on page 105. Running For Cover (Double): If the fighter is Standing and Active, they will move 2D6". If the fighter is Prone and Pinned or Prone and Seriously Injured, they can only move half of their Movement characteristic.]
• Should an Exotic Beast become Broken, it will run towards its owner when activated rather than for cover. When an Exotic Beast makes a Running for Cover (Double) action, it runs towards its owner. It is only concerned with getting back within 3" of its owner.
• An Exotic Beast that has become Broken automatically rallies if it ends an activation within 3" of its owner (note that, during Campaign play, Exotic Beasts do not gain XP for rallying in this way).
• If the owner is removed from the battlefield for any reason, the Exotic Beast is also removed from play.
• Exotic Beasts are not counted for Bottle tests, neither as part of the starting crew nor as fighters Taken Out of Action or Prone and Seriously Injured. • If an Exotic Beast is taken Out of Action or becomes Prone and Seriously Injured, only other Exotic Beasts need to take Nerve tests to avoid becoming Broken, gangers are made of sterner stuff and expect their beasts to lead short lives.
• Exotic Beasts gain Experience and suffer Lasting Injuries as a normal Ganger and may become a Specialist.
• Exotic Beasts may not take any additional equipment. They may not use weapons other than those detailed on their profile. They may never use Wargear. • Exotic Beasts can be taken Captive, in which case the owning fighter’s gang can attempt to rescue them and the capturing gang may sell them as if they were a normal fighter. Exotic Beasts taken Captive cannot be put to work in any Territories.

2. The exotic pets rule doesn't say anything about what to do if the pet is broken at the start of its activation. The rule is entirely about when the pet breaks at the end of its activation. That said, the rules DO say that an Exotic Beast that is broken (for whatever reason) will run toward its handler rather than toward cover. The rules do say that they will automatically rally as soon as it ends its activation within 3" of its owner (even if it broke as a result of not being within 3" and failing the test, and so ran towards its owner, and so reached its leash range of 3"). So they should if still broken during the End Phase, have a test to rally just like any other fighter, but when they once again activate, if they don't end within 3" (etc) of their owner, they will once again test or else break and run for their owner.

So in the group activation, it makes sense to activate the Exotic Beast second if the pair are moving across the table, so that it can catch up to its owner, rather than yo-yo back and forth only to be left behind.

3. Moving doesn't trigger a Group Activation. Selecting a fighter with Group Activation (X) triggers a Group Activation.

Step one: Declare activation of the handler.
Step two: Declare that it is a group activation (automatic here).
Step three: choose one of the fighters in the group activation - here pet or handler - to activate first. They perform their two actions. If this is the pet, then check their leash range after their two actions, and test if necessary.
Step four: choose the other one of the fighters in the group activation - here pet or handler - to activate second. They perform two actions. If this is the pet, then check their leash range after their two actions, and test if necessary.

Since failing the Nerve Test and becoming broken immediately re-activates the now-broken fighter, the pet will immediately run for its owner, rather than wait for its next Activation-as-part-of-the-Group-Activation.

4. Pets as part of a Group Activation (Exotic Beast) are activated in a group specifically with their handler, so it doesn't add to a "general pool" within a larger Group Activation, but would form a "bubble" when the handler is activated within the overall Group Activation.

5. Exotic beasts automatically rally whenever they come back within 3" of their handler at the end of their Run For Cover activation, so if a pet within 3" of their handler fails a nerve test and becomes Broken, they are immediately activated (per the rules in Nerve Test), don't move (because they are within 3" of their handler) and automatically rally.

6. Unlike the usual Group Activation (X) ability on leaders and chanpions, the Group Activation (Exotic Beast) that the handler gets does not have a range. When you activate the Handler, you automatically Group Activate them and any and all Exotic Beasts they own, regardless how far away they are. And you don't get to choose to NOT activate the Exotic Beasts. The rule says MUST, not MAY.

7. Pets are deployed "with" their handlers. This ends up open to interpretation in how it would interact with things like Infiltrate and From The Shadows. Almost no Exotic Beasts come with an "Infiltrate" equivalent (see Milliasaurs for the exception). I would hedge toward "if the pet is owned by an infiltrating fighter, they deploy in infiltration being that fighter's equipment, similarly for handlers with From The Shadows." But an argument could be made in either direction on this one - whether "with" means "within three inches of," or "with" means "at the same time as but in the normal deployment area," or "with" means "in the same scenario as, but using normal fighter deployment rules as if a ganger."

Hopefully some of this was helpful, but really it just boils down to reading the Exotic Beasts rules and the Nerve Test rules line by line (despite them being on entirely separate pages).

 

[TopsyKretts]

- Since it's granting actions, and not an actual activation, Group Activation(Exotic Beasts) does not trigger. It's a rule, not an action. That is reserved for when the handler activates. I now believe that a handler who receives these Actions do so without their pet. This should be used to move ahead of the pets so that they can easily avoid getting off their Leash when they do activate.

You may be over complicating things. Overseer effectively transfers an activation to another fighter. You sacrifice one fighter's activation to activate another fighter. 2 actions is a normal activation. Of course it's not exactly like that because there are ways to boost actions, so Overseer could have 3 actions, give 2 away and still spend an action. However, the game kinda falls apart if you say the other fighter can spend 2 actions without activating, because that circumvents stuff like Blaze, Blind and Insanity which doesn't make sense.

 

[Sarkazym]

Thank you for chiming in. There isn't much of a disagreement anymore on most of what you said. So I'll just comment/respond where I feel applicable, so you can see where I am coming from and maybe provide additional insight.

1. Per the rules as written, the "leash" aspect of their rules is checked at the end of their activation.

This has been cleared up, so there is no contest about anything you said here. The Confusion initially came from having to chase down the 'Broken Fighter' rule. The only mention of immediate activation is with Nerve tests, which we overlooked because the reference pointed you toward the Broken rule. Not something a new player like me was even looking at.

2. The exotic pets rule doesn't say anything about what to do if the pet is broken at the start of its activation.

Without any exemptions in the Exotic Pets rules, they would follow the rules for normal fighters. So if they are still somehow broken when they activate, they will perform a [/b]Run for Cover(D)[/b] action again, and move toward their handler. All of the confusion was stated before we found the immediate activation under the Nerve test rules. So the Dice Gods would be playing a prank to make it so that during it's activation a Pet would have to be out of leash range, FAIL the Nerve test, then FAIL to Run for Cover(D) back into leash range allowing it to Auto-rally, somehow manage to get in leash range of the handler (probably because the handler decided to activate and move in leash range), FAIL to rally in the End Phase (with possible assistance), all while surviving any opponents remaining activations.

So in the group activation, it makes sense to activate the Exotic Beast second if the pair are moving across the table, so that it can catch up to its owner, rather than yo-yo back and forth only to be left behind.

This is how I READ it, but it's not what I SEE when watching batreps. Not testing after the 2 actions was so common, that I honestly felt like I was missing something and simply couldn't find it in N23.

3. Moving doesn't trigger a Group Activation. Selecting a fighter with Group Activation (X) triggers a Group Activation.

I was initially treating it as the same rule with (Exotic Pets) creating exemptions to the normal rule, when it's two independent rules that have a similar function. It's also a rule, and not an action, so only triggers on activation.
Group Activation(X) - Optional, limited by Range and the number of fighters equal to X when used.
Group Activation(Exotic Pets) - Mandatory, limited only to any Pets the activating model has. Range, and number are not factors here.

4. Pets as part of a Group Activation (Exotic Beast) are activated in a group specifically with their handler, so it doesn't add to a "general pool" within a larger Group Activation, but would form a "bubble" when the handler is activated within the overall Group Activation.

Thank you for actually stating it so plainly, I feel this way too and no longer see any reason to play it another way.

5. Exotic beasts automatically rally whenever they come back within 3" of their handler at the end of their Run For Cover activation.

The confusion here was that I was unaware of what to do with the Pet if it was Broken while in Leash range. Realistically, should this rare scenario actually happen, we treat them as fighters FIRST. So if they activate before the handler, they would Run for Cover(D) and stop at the handler. The BEST thing to do in this case would be to activate the handler first, so that the Run for Cover(D) would auto-rally the Pet somewhere useful and won't be left behind when the handler activates.

7. Pets are deployed "with" their handlers. This ends up open to interpretation in how it would interact with things like Infiltrate and From The Shadows.

This is what players have said, but I disagree. It's an oversimplification like Overseer. I'm not saying this rule doesn't exist, just that I haven't found it. So any help here would be appreciated.

Under Exotic Pets (N23 p.87) it only tells us that when the handler is selected for a scenario, the Exotic beast may also be deployed. This exemption allows Pets to take the starting number of fighters above any restrictions provided by the scenario. No exemption is made at this step to the normal deployment rules.

Almost no Exotic Beasts come with an "Infiltrate" equivalent (see Milliasaurs for the exception). I would hedge toward "if the pet is owned by an infiltrating fighter, they deploy in infiltration being that fighter's equipment, similarly for handlers with From The Shadows." But an argument could be made in either direction on this one - whether "with" means "within three inches of," or "with" means "at the same time as but in the normal deployment area," or "with" means "in the same scenario as, but using normal fighter deployment rules as if a ganger."

It's rare that Exotic Beasts start with 'Infiltrate' and improbable that they will acquire it over other skills available. I initially felt the argument would swing toward the Pet being able to benefit from it WHEN it's handler uses it. Now that Pets existing with it is a Fact, there isn't much of an argument for allowing them to piggyback on a handlers Infiltrate without de-valuing those designed to benefit from it.

It's another case of what I SEE in Batreps, not mixing with what I READ. Without an exemption, Pets should follow all the normal rules for Deployment as a fighter. So despite being Wargear, they will follow the deployment rules for the Scenario. Which as I understand it, players will alternate choosing fighters to deploy. If this is the 'Standard Method' then models without Infiltrate will deploy during the Standard process, while those with Infiltrate will deploy after both sides have finished.

I actually prefer the idea that Pets will deploy separate from their handler. It'll be up to the owning player to decide if he want's to start the handler/pets in leash range, or require the pets to catch up to the handler (In the case of the handler using Infiltrate), or position themselves to be waiting for the Handler to arrive (In the case of the Pet using Infiltrate). It also makes all Pets a kind of counter when the opponent has Infiltrators to limit where Infiltrators can be deployed. Kind of how units can limit Deep Strike/Rapid Ingress in 40k.

Hopefully some of this was helpful, but really it just boils down to reading the Exotic Beasts rules and the Nerve Test rules line by line (despite them being on entirely separate pages).

EXTREMELY helpful. I found it much easier to explain my responses to your post in a way that makes much more sense. Thanks!

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You may be over complicating things. Overseer effectively transfers an activation to another fighter. You sacrifice one fighter's activation to activate another fighter. 2 actions is a normal activation. Of course it's not exactly like that because there are ways to boost actions, so Overseer could have 3 actions, give 2 away and still spend an action. However, the game kinda falls apart if you say the other fighter can spend 2 actions without activating, because that circumvents stuff like Blaze, Blind and Insanity which doesn't make sense.

After discussing it tonight with other players they tend to agree with me. Even played a game and tested it out despite the disastrous event that happened to the handler. It's intentionally written to avoid granting a model an additional activation, either with or without a ready marker. It's exactly like you said, it EFFECTIVELY transfers an activation. The effect is similar to an Activation while not being one. Ready markers are what binds a model to an activation. Overseer doesn't give or remove a ready marker. They simply take 2 actions immediately, resulting in an activation like effect.

The advantages/disadvantages of this are tied to rules that Trigger on Activation.

- Group Activation (Either) is the most common trigger effect when a model activates that is relative to this discussion. Group Activation is a rule, so Overseer can't be used to trigger it, that would require an actual activation removing a Ready token. This prevents pets from getting a second activation as a result of targeting a handler. An affected handler simply cannot trigger the mandatory Pet activation. If it did, then it would make no sense since it would force the pets to burn their Ready tokens as part of the Order action, which would leave them stranded when the handler goes to activate because they'd be forced to activate but can't without a Ready token. There is no connection that allows the pets to also keep their Ready markers since they aren't the model being targeted.
- As a standing fighter, Pets are eligible recipients of Overseer, when their handler isn't. If the Pet doesn't transfer the actions to it's handler, then how does it make sense to tranfer the actions to the pets when they're out of range? It doesn't break any rule and even makes sense to allow the pet to take 2 Actions, and gets around the Pets can only activate when their handler does because it's not an activation, it just looks like one.
- Whether this is good for the pets is entirely dependent on the pet. It could allow a pet to perform a variety of normal actions without the penalty of having to take a Nerve test. It will still have to test when it activates, but this can be after the rest of the gang has activated. On the backside, it could be used to get a pet somewhere critical, like back into leash range of it's handler before it activates. In tonights game, I was able to shift my Continuous Effect bubble after it was used to cripple the enemy I was focused on.
- In the case of psykers, it cleans up some of the rules. Continuous Effects expire at the beginning of a fighters activation (FAQ). When targeted by Overseer, he's not required to keep a Continuous Effect up and act like a basic fighter. Actually activating him would require a Willpower test to maintain a power twice in one round. No one in group believes that's somehow intentional.

In the game tonight, I chose to activate my Gheist first. 'Concentrate' as first Action, 'Unrememberable Utterance' second action was successful, gaining +2" from Choir for a 5" bubble off the Wyrm, then I was able to move the Wyrm 12" to get that bubble to affect a Goliath Champion before his activation. The champion decided to use his one activation to shoot instead of moving someplace safe. This failed. Since we chose to treat it as 2 Actions instead of a second activation, I was able to use Overseer on the handler, and not have 'Utterance' affected at all, and get the handler into a much better position to perform a rare feat on the next round. The Wyrm had already done his job on the Champion he affected. It was easy to see how powerful treating it as an activation would be with the handler taking up a position near the Goliath Champion, while the Wyrm would then zing another 12" to prevent 2-3 other Goliaths from taking 2 actions. Especially since the Wyrm was about 13" away from the Overseer. This would be a case where Overseer would be abused/exploited by allowing the pet to benefit when it wasn't the model selected to benefit.
It was also nice not having to try and figure out the Ready marker interaction.

 

[HugeSamples]

In the game tonight, I chose to activate my Gheist first. 'Concentrate' as first Action, 'Unrememberable Utterance' second action was successful, gaining +2" from Choir for a 5" bubble off the Wyrm, then I was able to move the Wyrm 12" to get that bubble to affect a Goliath Champion before his activation. The champion decided to use his one activation to shoot instead of moving someplace safe. This failed. Since we chose to treat it as 2 Actions instead of a second activation, I was able to use Overseer on the handler, and not have 'Utterance' affected at all, and get the handler into a much better position to perform a rare feat on the next round. The Wyrm had already done his job on the Champion he affected. It was easy to see how powerful treating it as an activation would be with the handler taking up a position near the Goliath Champion, while the Wyrm would then zing another 12" to prevent 2-3 other Goliaths from taking 2 actions. Especially since the Wyrm was about 13" away from the Overseer. This would be a case where Overseer would be abused/exploited by allowing the pet to benefit when it wasn't the model selected to benefit.
It was also nice not having to try and figure out the Ready marker interaction.

I think you played it correctly.

Yes, overseer is busted overpowered .

 

[Aulenback]

The "pets deploy alongside their owners" came from Gang Wars 3, back in 2018-ish, and then was re-confirmed in 2019

ent an email to NecroFAQ and got a reply:

Q: Exotic Beasts, two questions:
-They gain XP like gangers, and gangers gain XP from rallying. Do they gain XP from being abandoned by their master, breaking and then auto-rallying when they return?
-If the owner deploys using Infiltrate, Needleways/Tunnels or as reinforcements... does the pet deploy with him? Does it count like a fighter if it uses Tunnels/Needleways, or is it a free "fourth" fighter? If the owner enters as reinforcements, does the pet count as one of the reinforcements or is it "free" -and does it automatically deploy with the owner or does it have to be rolled for separately?

A: Beasts do gain XP for rallying. I'm aware of some unscrupulous players using this to farm XP on them by having them flee back towards their masters. It's intentional that they should be able to earn XP in this way, but it is not in the spirit of the game to abuse this. How you deal with this in your campaign is an issue for the Arbitrator to resolve really. If you find someone doing it, I'd suggest simply disallowing Beasts to gain XP in that way.

Beast always deploy with their masters and don't count as an extra fighter.

"Beasts always deploy with their masters." Reiterating the bit from Gang Wars 3:

Whenever the fighter that owns the Exotic Beast is selected for a scenario, you
may choose to deploy the Exotic Beast alongside their owner regardless of how
many other fighters you have selected.

It is true that N23 (of course) mangled that line from the earlier pets rules when pasting in the beasts rules, when writing to more explicitly state that they go in over and above Starting Crew. Sigh. Which would make a mess of things -- of course. [EDIT: it looks like the wording change happened in the "House Of" books, not just in N23.]

Because a warrior with From The Shadows, for example, who has an Exotic Pet, doesn't deploy before the first round of the scenario. If the pet does not deploy alongside them, but instead is deployed as a normal fighter at the beginning of the scenario, then it doesn't have an owner on the table, which means (1) it cannot perform Run For Cover, as required, and (2) whenever a pet's owner is off the table, the pet is supposed to then be removed.

If the owner is removed from the battlefield for any reason, the Exotic Beast is also removed from play.

Infiltrate would give the same RaW problem, in having the pet deployed onto the table before the owner is, and having immediately to be removed.

The easiest way to avoid that can of worms, especially given that pets cannot learn the infiltrate skill (it is not on the D3 Exotic Pets Skills tables), is to keep the rule as was, and as was reiterated, and then was confirmed: that Exotic Beasts deploy alongside their owner.

Unless our plan is to reduce pet ownership for House Delaque in particular (especially Nacht-Ghuls).

 

[Aulenback]

As for Overseer and pets,

When it comes down to Handlers/Pets, I now strongly believe the following statements are correct:
- Since it's granting actions, and not an actual activation, Group Activation(Exotic Beasts) does not trigger. It's a rule, not an action. That is reserved for when the handler activates. I now believe that a handler who receives these Actions do so without their pet. This should be used to move ahead of the pets so that they can easily avoid getting off their Leash when they do activate.

This seems correct. Using overseer on a Handler should not cause the Activation of the Exotic Beast, because it is "as though" activating, but is explicitly not activating. So the Group Activation (Exotic Beast) should not trigger.

- Pets can be targeted by Overseer since they can meet all the criteria. Despite being Wargear, they are a friendly fighter within 6". They don't need the handler to use these actions since they're not actually being activated, so can do their thing even without their handler. What makes this very uncomfortable to see is that a player could slingshot the pet way out of leash range, then go further when it actually activates before having to make a Nerve Check.

This also seems correct, and yes, that should allow for a slingshot of a couple moves beyond normal leash range without causing the Nerve Test until the end of their subsequent Activation. Given the limited utility of most Exotic Beasts out on their own, that doesn't seem at all unreasonable. Sure, I can get my pupper to play fetch an extra ten inches away from its owner. But it still needs to make a Nerve Test at the end of its actual activation, and will have that extra distance to run before rallying. Could it be useful? Sure, on occasion. Is it unreasonably powerful? Not really even for the Worms. It is still giving up the Activation of a likely-more-useful fighter to allow for it.

But I think you have it correct in both of these. Also, good move with the wyrm.

 

[Sarkazym]

The "pets deploy alongside their owners" came from Gang Wars 3, back in 2018-ish, and then was re-confirmed in 2019

It is true that N23 (of course) mangled that line from the earlier pets rules when pasting in the beasts rules, when writing to more explicitly state that they go in over and above Starting Crew. Sigh. Which would make a mess of things -- of course. [EDIT: it looks like the wording change happened in the "House Of" books, not just in N23.]

I'm still new and have been told this repeatedly. I've only been exposed to N23 (and House) Books. This comes with the benefit/flaw of approaching the game with Fresh Eyes. I've got ZERO doubt that it used to be case in earlier printings, but there is no evidence that it's still the case. It's like trying to make an earlier edition of 40k/AoS relevant to the current rules.

Infiltrate would give the same RaW problem, in having the pet deployed onto the table before the owner is, and having immediately to be removed.

This part confuses me a bit. There isn't a RaW conflict between the handler/pet connection and Infiltrate. Infiltrate only alters how a model deploys but it all happens within the Deployment step during the Setup Process. Infiltrators aren't placed on the board, then removed to Infiltrate, which would trigger the Exotic Pet exemption. Both of the models will be present on the table before their Activation, or even Priority being rolled. Even if the 'deploy alongside their owners' is still current, all of the conditions are being met, since there is no requirement forcing a handler pet to deploy within leash range of each other. (Though it's makes tactical sense to do so.)

Because a warrior with From The Shadows, for example, who has an Exotic Pet, doesn't deploy before the first round of the scenario. If the pet does not deploy alongside them, but instead is deployed as a normal fighter at the beginning of the scenario, then it doesn't have an owner on the table, which means (1) it cannot perform Run For Cover, as required, and (2) whenever a pet's owner is off the table, the pet is supposed to then be removed.

I'm going to assume you're talking about Nacht-Ghuls here because I'm unaware of any other models with 'From the Shadows'. From a straight N23/House perspective there is STILL no RAW conflict. Simply follow the RaW chain of events, and there is no conflict at any stage. It just looks sketchy when you see it.

1 - Nacht-Ghul is selected as one of the Crew for the Scenario
(Deployment Triggers)
2 - Exotic Pets RaW allows a pet to deploy, which happens after Crew selection and any restrictions it had.
3 - When deploying the Nacht-Ghul, the player then has the option to use 'From the Shadows'.
4 - Without any special rules of it's own, nothing prevents the Pet from deploying.
(Game Starts)
(Give all models a Ready token)
(Roll Priority, Activate Models)
5 - Even though it has a Ready token, the Pet can never be selected to activate because Exotic Pets Raw says that he can only activate when the handler does.
** Since it never activates, it'll never have take a Nerve test for being off it's leash. So there won't be a need to Run for Cover as a result of failing a Nerve test because it doesn't have to take one for being off leash.
** There is a difference between being off the board and being taken Out of Action. That's a different debate, but for the sake of this argument, I'm treating OOA as a result of something that happens to the model in game, not before he shows up. I'll get to why I don't think it's relevant below.
** Overseer could be used to get the pet to do something if needed to, most likely to move it closer to where the player now plans deploy the Nacht Ghul. This would be the last option to the Leader. The Leader would have to choose to avoid keeping the Action for himself which having a gun, would most likely be a better option. Then out of all the eligible fighters for Overseer (if any), the Pet would still most likely be the least effective target for Overseer. It's possible, but I don't see it happening unless the owner is committing to doing that and setting it up.
(End of Round)
(Deploy Nacht-Ghul)
(Roll Priority, Activate Models)
6 - Nacht-Ghul Activates and Group Activation is Mandatory.
7 - Exotic Pet activates before/after Nacht-Ghul, and all of the Exotic Pet Exemptions.
** Now the Pet will actually be able to activate, have to take a Nerve Test if it's out of Leash Range, and if he breaks will have a handler to run to.

Now in YOUR defense, the scenario you created is still possible. If the pet fails a nerve test in Round 1, then we run into the issues you stated. The only common way I can see that happening is the pet watching a friendly fighter go down within 3" of him, on Round 1. Outside of that, it would be an extremely rare situation where the pet that can't be activated would be the best target for an opponent.

The easiest way to avoid that can of worms, especially given that pets cannot learn the infiltrate skill (it is not on the D3 Exotic Pets Skills tables), is to keep the rule as was, and as was reiterated, and then was confirmed: that Exotic Beasts deploy alongside their owner.

I'm not sure that easiest is the correct term here. House rule, Simplified, or Laziest would be more accurate, because there are easier solutions that already exist through RAW, or require less interference than allowing them to benefit from a rule they don't have/can't use.

* Granting Infiltrate (Skill) is one debate, granting a Fighter Rule would be different to that.
* The Nacht-Ghul has 'Tools of the Trade'. The pet is still Wargear at that step. Since 'From the Shadows' is optional, and not Mandatory, the player could simply choose to use 'From the Shadows' and not deal with a pet holding him back.
* The only pet available to the Nacht-Ghul is the Spektor. It's extremely unlikely that a Nacht-Ghul would go through all the trouble of dealing with the rule for a model that helps with INT tests, that becomes a bomb if it's handler is in 3" of it goes OOA. I can see the benefit of having a Spektor if the Nacht-Ghul is in a Sentry scenario, but he'll 'Tools of the Trade' that when happens. I'm still new that i'm not sure it's possible for him to acquire one from the Market. I can't see any pet being assigned to him as the best option over other gang members, or any advantages to give him one of those pets to make it worthwhile.
* It IS possible for a Gheist to become a Nacht-Ghul and gaing 'From the Shadows'. The Wyrm has a 12" leash and Burrow. So fitting him in to the above situation would make it even MORE difficult to take a Nerve test before the Gheist-Ghul shows up, while making the leash range more accessible than almost all the other Pets available.
* Even if you have to make an allowance and fudge a rule, Wouldn't it STILL be easier to force the Broken pet to behave like a normal fighter without a handler on the board, since the only Nerve tests it will be taking, are those that affect a normal fighter in the first place. A less intrusive/abusive solution than granting access to a skill/rule it doesn't have.

-----
The biggest counters to the argument is the fact that there are RaW Pets with Infiltrate.
* Outland Beastmaster with Millisaurs. (Book of the Outlands p.51). The handler doesn't come with any skills, only the pets do. He can only pick one type of pet, and then they gain the skill based on that Pet. Millisaurs come with Infiltrate. They don't get to Infiltrate simply because the Handler does. Imagine being the player who pays for a handler/pet to both have Infiltrate watch another Infiltrator get to use infiltrate his pet without having the rule.
* Since one exists by Raw, ruling that pets still deploy with their handlers, means you will need to address those who can RaW Infiltrate. This already makes it less easier than the above options. Like the situations above, it's only relevant when the stars align and someone in an Arbiters campaign decides to hire an Outlands Beastmaster forcing the Aribiter to address it. I just don't see it being that common.