N18 Faction keyword definition - starting to matter!

TopsyKretts

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This topic is about Faction keyword used in Necromunda and what its exact definitions are.

First of all, what is all this? A lot of rules will mentioned "<Gang> fighter". This was, as far as I can see, introduced in N20 (House of books). This will be referred to here as 'Faction fighter'. Examples:
  • Goliath fighter
  • Escher fighter
  • Orlock fighter
  • Van Saar fighter
  • House Cawdor fighter (includes both Cawdor and Redemptionist)
  • House Delaque fighter
So it's a technical term, but it is not defined anywhere. So why does this matter? Here are some rules that are limited to and only applies to Faction fighters:
  • Group Activation (except pets, they have different wording and not affected by this)
  • Gang Hierarchy (Leading by Example)
  • Delaque: Psychoteric Choir
  • Orlock: Rule of Iron (Arms Master), Legendary Names
  • Cawdor: Faith Dice and Articles
  • Overseer (Alliances)
  • Various Gang Terrain
  • Some tactics (others apply to any 'friendly fighter')
So for these (and other) rules, what type of fighters are included? Let's first list all possible fighter types:
  • Normal fighters: Leader, Champ, Ganger, Juve (and any Specialist variants)
  • Pets
  • Hired Guns (can be special characters or generic in addition to Law-Abiding or Outlaw):
    • Hired Fighter (Old Three-Eyes)
    • Hive Scum
    • Bounty Hunter
    • Agent
  • Hangers-on
    • Brutes
Some are given. Both normal fighters and agents are obviously Faction fighters. In addition, the following text may indicate what are included (outlined by me):
PSYCHOTERIC CHOIRS
All Delaque share a link to the Psychoterica and, even if they are not skilled in the use of Psychoteric Whispers, can aid those that are. When a Delaque fighter (including House Agent Hired Guns, Hangers-on and Brutes) uses a Psychoteric Whisper, its potency will be increased for every friendly Delaque fighter that is within 3" of them, is Standing and is not Engaged, as the other Delaque join in with hissing whispers under their breath. Each eligible Delaque fighter within this range will increase the range of the Psychoteric Whisper by 1" (to a maximum of +3").

In addition, the Psychoteric Whisper will be harder to resist, and any Intelligence check made to resist the Psychoteric Whisper must reduce the result of the dice roll by 1 for each friendly Delaque fighter within 3" of the whisperer (to a maximum of 3).

House of Shadow (Delaque), page 97
If this is can serve as a definition, Faction fighter also includes any Hangers-on and Brute. But not any Hired Guns nor pets.

Another thing worth mentioning is several fighters have the gang name in their title. For example "Yagaloth, Delaque Bounty Hunter". By that extent, perhaps all Hired Guns that are limited to specific gangs are Faction fighters also? While generic fighters are not?

How do you use the "Faction" keyword in your games?
 
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LekyRyu

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I would apply faction fighters to the gang fighters, their specific brute (if any), their specific hangers-on (if any), house agents of their own house (if any) and that's it.

By specific I mean those that can only be recruited by their gang, not those that can be recruited by any but have discounts for the gang in question.
 

TopsyKretts

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Great clarification. Note that all agents are gang-specific. So using Delaque as an example, they would have the following Faction fighters:
  • Spektor (Brute)
  • Thrall (Hangers-on)
  • Spyker (Hangers-on)
  • Generic Agent
  • Servant of the Silent Ones (Agent)
So Yagaloth cannot participate in or benefit from the Choir? That's kinda ironic, as he is the Master of Whispers, a Psyker able to use Psychoteric Whisper. I'm not sure if everyone would agree on this.

You should also reconsider exclude universal brutes as Faction fighters, because the Ogryn currently has Slow-Witted (cannot take part in Group Activations), but this ruling would give Slow-Witted to almost all Brutes.

Note that this ruling would prevent Cawdor Hired Guns from generating Faith dice, however most of them do have special rules that grant them this ability like any other Faction fighter. This to me indicates that they are in fact Faction fighters already (implied by the updated rules).

This also means that after failing a bottle test, Redemptionist Priest (Leader) cannot use Leading by Example to prevent his Cherub-servitor from fleeing.
 
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TopsyKretts

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Just noticed that Goliath tactics specify "House Goliath fighter" instead of "Goliath fighter" 🤣 Not sure if that's supposed to mean anything different. For Cawdor it makes sense as it implies also including Redemptionist. But no other gangs use this term.

This is such a mess, no wonder GW avoids defining the term!

Also noted that no Sub-plots mention faction fighter (only enemy/friendly fighters). Well, except "Hymn of Devotion" (Cawdor), and it is redundantly mentioned there in regards to Threshold tests (Articles of Faith already require Faction fighter).
 
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LekyRyu

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So Yagaloth cannot participate in or benefit from the Choir? That's kinda ironic, as he is the Master of Whispers, a Psyker able to use Psychoteric Whisper. I'm not sure if everyone would agree on this.

I would argue against this point a lot. Let's look at Yagaloth's rules, shall we?

Envoy of the Silent Ones: Yageloth counts as a Bounty Hunter that can only be hired by House Delaque gangs. Note that, unlike a regular Bounty Hunter it is not subject to the Dead, Not Alive, Claiming Bounties and “We’ll Get Our Bit…” special rules.

I think that would clearly make him House Specific if he can't be hired by any other gang that isn't House Delaque

You should also reconsider exclude universal brutes as Faction fighters, because the Ogryn currently has Slow-Witted (cannot take part in Group Activations), but this ruling would give Slow-Witted to almost all Brutes.

The only brutes that would be Slow-witted by accident would be Ambots and their Corrupted cousins, Iron Automata, Sump Beasts and Warp Horrors. And yet I would propose something else, that Group Activations don't need to fall under <Gang> Fighter exactly, just your starting crew and allies that allow it since it has enough exceptions to merit being its own thing.
 
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TopsyKretts

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No question Yagaloth is is gang-specific to Delaque. That's a fact. Where did you include that in your list? Your definition gave the impression of being exhaustive.
I would apply faction fighters to the gang fighters, their specific brute (if any), their specific hangers-on (if any), house agents of their own house (if any) and that's it.

The only brutes that would be Slow-witted by accident would be Ambots and their Corrupted cousins, Iron Automata, Sump Beasts and Warp Horrors. And yet I would propose something else, that Group Activations don't need to fall under <Gang> Fighter exactly, just your starting crew and allies that allow it since it has enough exceptions to merit being its own thing.
So in order to define Faction fighter, we also need to redefine other rules like Group Activation? And why limit Group Activtion to starting crew, that would prevent any reinforcements to initiate or take part in group activations?
 
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LekyRyu

Juve
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No question Yagaloth is is gang-specific to Delaque. That's a fact. Where did you include that in your list? Your definition gave the impression of being exhaustive.



So in order to define Faction fighter, we also need to redefine other rules like Group Activation? And why limit Group Activtion to starting crew, that would prevent any reinforcements to initiate or take part in group activations?


Probably it would be better to state your roster instead of starting crew, just to define that it's your fighters and not hired guns that get that benefit with alliances being the exception (some of them)

About Yageloth I mentioned it here

"By specific I mean those that can only be recruited by their gang, not those that can be recruited by any but have discounts for the gang in question."

Though it's not exhaustive, it's just a very quick and dirty way to try and grab all of them. Just trying to shrink the net around what can be and can't be grouped under that tag and my initial thought is all of those that are specific to the gang as defined by the quote above.
 

TopsyKretts

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Ok now I'm all confused. First you give a list of things that are Faction fighter:

  • gang fighters
  • specific brute (if any)
  • specific hangers-on (if any)
  • house agents (if any)
Then you end it with the following, making an impression that the list is exhaustive:
and that's it.

The last part looks like it was a clarification on the term "specific" used in the list above?
By specific I mean those that can only be recruited by their gang, not those that can be recruited by any but have discounts for the gang in question.
Is it meant to add additional fighters as faction fighters not mentioned in your list?

I think I'll stick with RAW for now, don't have to make further changes to other related rules:
1628541694846.png
 
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LekyRyu

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Yes but I didn't mean it as a comprehensive. It was more of a first draft of a rule as I haven't even sought out fringe cases or exceptions.

As a starting point to discuss and find those cases.

I don't mind either way as all of this should be a YAQ, right? Each arbitrator still would chose the way they interpret the rules
 
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TopsyKretts

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Yeah evetyone are already making judgements on this unconsciously. Put to put it in writing is challenging.

For those without any arbitrator (I've payed for 20 years without any arbitrators) have to discuss for themselves.
 

Mr. M

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This has been an extremely helpful discussion that has shed some much needed clarity on (yet another) rule that is about as clear as mud. Thank you all!
 
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