N18 Fair Cost

[Psyan]

Flamers seem to be regarded as a good, but horribly overpriced weapon in Necromunda. I can't say that I've ever seen anyone take a Flamer in even a moderately competitive list. Who wants to take a Flamer when you can have a Plasma Gun for 40 points less? If you were resetting weapon prices in your campaign, what is the sweet spot between "totally not worth it" and "that's an auto-take"?
For now, let's disregard the fact that you could take a Hand Flamer or Combat Shotgun with Firestorm ammo relatively inexpensively; I'm just trying to see where the Flamer stacks up vs other Special Weapons.

 

[Galtarr]

I think it's quite subjective to your meta. We tend to play on small boards (3*3' max) and the 2017 tiles for speed. So super long range firefights aren't such an issue. And in tunnel warfare flamers are scary so I'd say 90pts. If you had alot more open 4*4' boards I can see people saying 70.

I personally think any play testing happened on those tunnel boards which is why CC and short range stuff is so much pricier than the long range weapons that actually dominate most large tables. It's the only way I can understand their pricing decisions.

 

[Psyan]

Well, yeah... everything is meta dependent. I'm looking for an acceptable price point for an "average" campaign/match/terrain layout. If you take it to either extreme (huge, clear table or tunnel fight) weapons become dramatically more or less valuable.

 

[Scabs]

Hand flamers are a bit too cheap. Or, coulda/shoulda had a smaller template like the old days. Cawdor get cheap flamers, which is easily abused. I've never paid for a Flamer or Heavy Flamer (except on a vehicle.). So, yeah, they cost too much.

 

[Aulenback]

Is a flamer's +1S and -1Armour worth double the price of a Hand Flamer? Not an easy call. How does it look (8", S4, -1AP, 1D, Blaze) in comparison to other ~120 credit weapons, such as Harpoon Launcher or Mining Laser?

 

[HugeSamples]

The reason you don't see many people willing to pay for flamers or (lol) heavy flamers is that they all use the same sized template and the good part of the weapon is blaze.

Unlike web, blaze isn't dependent on the strength of the weapon.

Therefore, in most cases hand flamers are the better buy.

Since blaze is really strong, I think rather than reducing the cost of flamers, you might want to consider increasing the cost of hand flamers?

Heavy flamers essentially don't exist either way .

 

[HugeSamples]

That said all that changing the price of either gun is going to do is change which one is seen as "the better buy".

There are cost breakpoints where one becomes the optimal buy, and since functionally they are both just a delivery mechanism for blaze (which doesn't care about the weapon's stats) the better value one will always win.

I'll return to my web example:
web pistols are S4 (they hit the strength breakpoint for wounding T3 models).
webguns are S5 (they hit the strength breakpoint for wounding T4 models).

web needs to wound to get its effect and both of these toughness values are pretty common.

Therefore you're going to see a mix of them depending on what you're up against. e.g. going up against goliath? You probably want the webgun.

 

[Psyan]

Is a flamer's +1S and -1Armour worth double the price of a Hand Flamer? Not an easy call. How does it look (8", S4, -1AP, 1D) in comparison to other ~120 credit weapons, such as Harpoon Launcher or Mining Laser?

I'd take the Mining Laser, lol.
However, maybe it's better to compare apples with apples? How does it stack up vs the Plasma Gun? IMO, not very well. Therefore it should probably cost a bit less.

@HS makes a good point about the power of Blaze not being connected to the strength of the weapon, unlike Web weapons. The extra point of strength and -1AP on the regular Flamer are probably worth 20-30 credits, but I'm pretty confident that they're not worth 70 credits.

 

[HugeSamples]

However, maybe it's better to compare apples with apples? How does it stack up vs the Plasma Gun? IMO, not very well. Therefore it should probably cost a bit less.

Plasma guns are probably very under costed, much like bolters.

 

[TopsyKretts]

The reason you don't see many people willing to pay for flamers or (lol) heavy flamers is that they all use the same sized template and the good part of the weapon is blaze.

Unlike web, blaze isn't dependent on the strength of the weapon.

Therefore, in most cases hand flamers are the better buy.

Since blaze is really strong, I think rather than reducing the cost of flamers, you might want to consider increasing the cost of hand flamers?

Heavy flamers essentially don't exist either way .

A common house rule is to have Str affect the Blaze roll, so heavy flamer S5 has Blaze 3+, Flamer S4 has Blaze 4+ and Hand Flamer S3 has Blaze 5+.

 

[Psyan]

That's a solid house rule.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

A common house rule is to have Str affect the Blaze roll, so heavy flamer S5 has Blaze 3+, Flamer S4 has Blaze 4+ and Hand Flamer S3 has Blaze 5+.

No if a heavy flamer Blazes on a 3+...
Nope still a unwieldy template.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Plasma guns are probably very under costed, much like bolters.

I find bolter to be well costed as a basic weapon. I don't spam weapons initially and that helps.
I consider who it's used for. It is basically the top tier assault rifle for gangers. Your champions will have access to bigger nasty guns. I find your champions and leader may use a bolter for a bit and get a bigger gun, like the plasma gun, in the later stages. (We don't play hand me downs). It allows a humble autogunner to graduate to a bigger gun to keep relevent in the later game sea of Brutes, souped up murder tornadoes and other high level fighters.

The plasma gun is 20 credits to cheap for me though.

 

[Scabs]

No if a heavy flamer Blazes on a 3+...
Nope still a unwieldy template.

Unless mounted on a vehicle. Then, it's nasty.

 

[Psyan]

I find bolter to be well costed as a basic weapon. I don't spam weapons initially and that helps.
I consider who it's used for. It is basically the top tier assault rifle for gangers. Your champions will have access to bigger nasty guns. I find your champions and leader may use a bolter for a bit and get a bigger gun, like the plasma gun, in the later stages. (We don't play hand me downs). It allows a humble autogunner to graduate to a bigger gun to keep relevent in the later game sea of Brutes, souped up murder tornadoes and other high level fighters.

The plasma gun is 20 credits to cheap for me though.

Yep. If I'm changing rules, I'd probably knock the Plasma Gun down to +1 at short range. +2 is just ridiculous.

 

[HugeSamples]

Yep. If I'm changing rules, I'd probably knock the Plasma Gun down to +1 at short range. +2 is just ridiculous.

I'm not sure you need to go that far. I think a cost adjustment might be better.

It doesn't fix your flamer problem, but you seem to like to compare things to it.

 

[libratorr]

I'd take the Mining Laser, lol.
However, maybe it's better to compare apples with apples? How does it stack up vs the Plasma Gun? IMO, not very well. Therefore it should probably cost a bit less.

@HS makes a good point about the power of Blaze not being connected to the strength of the weapon, unlike Web weapons. The extra point of strength and -1AP on the regular Flamer are probably worth 20-30 credits, but I'm pretty confident that they're not worth 70 credits.

Speaking of strengthless weapons...

Grav gun.
+1 to hit to 9", hits out to 18" and has a 3" blast template. Same ammo roll as a Flamer.
Auto-concusses on hit, auto wounds with no armour save and Damage 2 on a 4+ for standard fighters, 5+/6+ against standard goliaths/brutes (just have to beat the target's strength). Plus it slows down those it doesn't kill.
Special weapon, so you could theoretically spam four from the get-go without need for suspensors to speed you up.
What does this monstrosity cost? 130? 140?
120 credits for Van saar and delaque.

Delaque can also shave 3" off the range and get it as a (mercifully) sidearm-trait free "pistol" for 90 credits. Which they should have called a grav musket (for the Bloodbourne fans) and classified as a another special weapon to discourage casual glancers from thinking you could use it with two guns blazing, but eh...

Sure, Flamer can be a hilarious death sentence for targets on a high spire, but it isn't nearly as killy as 2 Damage that ignores armour and can be fired twice by a fast shot champ.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Auto wound is a bit of a stretch, it rolls against Strength instead of Toughness. Sounds almost identical to S4 in most cases.

Edit: Trust @HugeSamples and say S3, not S4.

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

I find bolter to be well costed as a basic weapon. I don't spam weapons initially and that helps.
I consider who it's used for. It is basically the top tier assault rifle for gangers. Your champions will have access to bigger nasty guns. I find your champions and leader may use a bolter for a bit and get a bigger gun, like the plasma gun, in the later stages. (We don't play hand me downs). It allows a humble autogunner to graduate to a bigger gun to keep relevent in the later game sea of Brutes, souped up murder tornadoes and other high level fighters.

The plasma gun is 20 credits to cheap for me though.

Nah, bolters are disgusting at 55cr each
The at S4 AP1 D2 Rapid Fire they're 90% of the way to a plasma gun. If you think a plasmagun is too strong at 100cr, your eyes should be bulging at the very very similar gun for half that...

Bolters need to either be dropped to D1, or about 80cr minimum

 

[HugeSamples]

Grav gun.
+1 to hit to 9", hits out to 18" and has a 3" blast template. Same ammo roll as a Flamer.
Auto-concusses on hit, auto wounds with no armour save and Damage 2 on a 4+ for standard fighters, 5+/6+ against standard goliaths/brutes (just have to beat the target's strength). Plus it slows down those it doesn't kill.
Special weapon, so you could theoretically spam four from the get-go without need for suspensors to speed you up.
What does this monstrosity cost? 130? 140?
120 credits for Van saar and delaque.

Delaque can also shave 3" off the range and get it as a (mercifully) sidearm-trait free "pistol" for 90 credits. Which they should have called a grav musket (for the Bloodbourne fans) and classified as a another special weapon to discourage casual glancers from thinking you could use it with two guns blazing, but eh...

Grav weapons aren't nearly as strong as you are making them out to be.

They are roughly a S3 weapon for all intents and purposes.
- wounds S1 targets on a 2+. (same as a S3 weapon vs T1)
- wounds S2 targets on a 3+. (same as a S3 weapon vs T2)
- wounds S3 targets on a 4+. (same as a S3 weapon vs T3)
- wounds S4 targets on a 5+. (same as a S3 weapon vs T4)
- wounds S5+ targets on a 6. (worse than a S3 weapon vs T5, and equal to a S3 weapon vs T6)

Unlike most weapons in this game, flesh wounds do not make it easier for them to inflict damage.

They only get better late game after people have taken injuries that have reduced their strength.