N18 Fast Shot and Vision Ark
- Thread starter ch3weh
- Start date
Group activations at the end of the description it has a seperate paragraph stating fighter activated through a group command may not use this special rule during this activation so no you can't call two group activations in one round.
If my overseer was to use his order and then the target wanted to group activate, then fine that's 3-4 models used up from his team, the other models don't get two free actions, they lose their ready marker, so can't be used again this round.
More importantly for all those who are saying there should be no free change of facing, being the crux of why we are debating this point, how do you see the turn working with overseer?
Beebop C U Next Tues
If my overseer was to use his order and then the target wanted to group activate, then fine that's 3-4 models used up from his team, the other models don't get two free actions, they lose their ready marker, so can't be used again this round.
More importantly for all those who are saying there should be no free change of facing, being the crux of why we are debating this point, how do you see the turn working with overseer?
Beebop C U Next Tues
"When a Standing fighter is activated, they may turn to face any direction their controlling player wishes, before making either of their actions. Changing facing in this way does not count as moving,"
Which yes, is very much back to, since this was pointed out back on page one of this discussion.
It really is not as cut-and-dried as you are hoping to be the answer.
When Activated, a fighter can get a free change of facing, which does not count as movement. When Activated, a fighter with the Group Actication (X) special rule can also trigger that special rule. When Activated, a fighter can perform up to two actions (or one Double action). How to Activate a fighter is explained on page 101 of the N'23 core book. Activating a fighter giving a free change of facing that isn't movement is explained on page 102 of the same book. In the section about Activating a fighter and then taking Actions.
That's the wording at the crux of this question that started the whole thing, and also of the question currently under discussion.
When Activated, at the start of the Activation, before taking (any sort of, even firing an Unwieldly weapon) Action.
So for the first question, it turns out that it can be combined with Simple Actions, but should be done before either Action, so turning between Fast Shot shots doesn't seem to fit. Nor for things like Gunslinger where you are shooting twice during one Action.
For things like Overwatch, the fighter is not being Activated, but are just getting an Action, outside of their own Activation and during someone else's Activation. So things that trigger off being Activated - like Group Activation, like the free Change of Facing, like several Tactics Cards, don't trigger. No Activation, no trigger.
Overseer complicates things, and isn't "a failed argument," or "obvious," or "people just being a c**t," as we have seen. It is a poorly worded rule. IF it gives a full extra Activation inside the Overseer's Activation, then it stacks those triggers. Both the Overseer and the target get free change of facing, get to use Group Activations, get to trigger Tactics Cards, etc. IF it gives two Actions but not an additional Activation, then it does not trigger Group Activation, does not trigger various Tactics cards, but also does not give a free Change of Facing. That's "as written."
Is that what is "as intended"? No one knows, because the several writers involved have not said, despite it being a frequently asked question for half a decade now. That's the point. Even if we double back and repeat the bits we have already discussed.
Despite my being rather in the middle, and arguing that it is a matter of Arbitrator interpreting a messy rule, I will try to walk through the steps that would result:
Leader uses Overseer, and targets a Champion:
1. Activate Leader.
1a. Leader, Activating, chooses whether to use Group Activation (2) on fighters close to the Leader, and chooses the order of Activation.
1b. Leader, Activating, automatically triggers Group Activation (Exotic Beast), and chooses order of Activation.
1c. Leader, Activating, gets a free Change of Facing if desired, before either of its Actions.
1d. Leader, Activating, triggers any Tactics Cards which trigger when a friendly fighter is Activated, and they may be played on the Leader.
2. When it is the Leader's turn during the Group Activation chain, the Leader uses Overseer (Double), targeting a Champion (potentially one of the fighters who had been part of the Group Activation, for that matter!)
2a. The target Champion does not get a free change of facing, since it isn't them Activating, but rather the Leader's Activation during which they are Acting. [*Note that the target can end up changing their facing through actions such as Move (Simple), or Charge (Double), or Take Cover (Basic), or Stand Up (Simple), or Crawl Through Ductway (Double), etc, all of which allow a choice of facing as part of that action]
2b. The target Champion does not get to use Group Activation (1) on fighters close to them, since it isn't them Activating, but rather the Leader's Activation during which they are Acting.
2c. The target Champion does not trigger Group Activation (Exotic Beast), since it isn't them Activating, but rather the Leader's Activation during which they are Acting.
2d. Tactics cards that trigger on Activating a friendly fighter may not be played on the target Champion, since it isn't them Activating, but rather the Leader's Activation during which they are Acting.
2e. The target Champion performs up to two Actions, as appropriate to their current status (Standing, Engaged, etc etc).
2f. The Leader's Activation ends. If there are other fighters in the Group Activation chain of the Leader's Activation remaining, Activate them in turn as appropriate.
That... that looks to be how that would work if Overseer does NOT give a full extra Activation to the target within the user's Activation.
Does that seem about right?
Alternatively, if Overseer DOES give an actual Activation-not-needing-a-Ready-Marker-during-the-user's-Activation, it looks like this:
Leader uses Overseer, and targets a Champion:
1. Activate Leader.
1a. Leader, Activating, chooses whether to use Group Activation (2) on fighters close to the Leader, and chooses the order of Activation.
1b. Leader, Activating, automatically triggers Group Activation (Exotic Beast), and chooses order of Activation.
1c. Leader, Activating, gets a free Change of Facing if desired, before either of its Actions.
1d. Leader, Activating, triggers any Tactics Cards which trigger when a friendly fighter is Activated, and they may be played on the Leader.
2. When it is the Leader's turn during the Group Activation chain, the Leader uses Overseer (Double), targeting a Champion (potentially one of the fighters who had been part of the Group Activation, for that matter!)
2a. The target Champion gets a free change of facing, because they are Activating.
2b. The target Champion may use Group Activation (1) on fighters close to them, since they are Activating and as part of Overseer, not as part of a Group Activation.
2c. The target Champion triggers Group Activation (Exotic Beast), since they are Activating.
2d. Tactics cards that trigger when a freindly fighter is Activated may be played on the target Champion, because they are Activating.
2e. The target Champion performs up to two Actions, as appropriate to their current status (Standing, Engaged, etc etc).
2f. The target Champion's Activation ends. If there are other fighters in the Group Activation chain of the target Champion's Activation remaining, Activate them in turn as appropriate.
2g. The Leader's Activation ends. If there are other fighters in the Group Activation chain of the Leader's Activation remaining, Activate them in turn as appropriate.
Last edited:
@ Aulenback, very nice summary and it highlights the problem with running things the first way well.
I would only amend the steps where if the overseer target champ was part of initial group activation it being able to call a second group activation, it would only be able to do this in the 2nd summary if target model had not been part of the leaders group activation.
If you were to run it the first way there are three quite major caveats that would have needed to be covered when writing the rule.
A) no change of facing on a shoot basic or unwieldy without a move action used first.
B) pets are not affected by this skill, which if correct would almost certainly have been included within the description as more than likely causes it own issues.
C) tactic cards may not be used by target.
D) target may not initiate a group activation.
Where as the other description plays out without needing any other changes to the normal procedure bar the lack of need to expend an action token.
This may be thought to be OP but it relies on the majority of that gang remaining within a very close radius of itself, 3" for group activate and 6" for overseer. If my opponent has set up the majority of his gang in such a small area I'm glad as I will have board control and freedom of movement. If this is being kept for a later in game gambit then this death star is also a lovely target for crossfire and opens up the overseer to being left unattended with generally not much more than an autopistol to defend them self as they chase to keep after everyone.
I don't know what level of terrain you are using but there's not going to be 4+ easy targets to spot off the bat in the first turn when this combo is going to really play off as it requires such a close formation to achieve it.
It would also mean the majority of the gang has all had it turn if we use the 5 (possible 4-7 depending on extras like cult icon etc) gangers and you now have activation freedom for your gang as most games are usually 7-8 models a side. This is pretty much the same as having the 2nd turn in the old edition.
If both the leader and champ have both burned a tactic as well even better as that should be the end of the nasty surprises (ave 2 tactics a game) unless they are a fellow Delaque.
I would only amend the steps where if the overseer target champ was part of initial group activation it being able to call a second group activation, it would only be able to do this in the 2nd summary if target model had not been part of the leaders group activation.
If you were to run it the first way there are three quite major caveats that would have needed to be covered when writing the rule.
A) no change of facing on a shoot basic or unwieldy without a move action used first.
B) pets are not affected by this skill, which if correct would almost certainly have been included within the description as more than likely causes it own issues.
C) tactic cards may not be used by target.
D) target may not initiate a group activation.
Where as the other description plays out without needing any other changes to the normal procedure bar the lack of need to expend an action token.
This may be thought to be OP but it relies on the majority of that gang remaining within a very close radius of itself, 3" for group activate and 6" for overseer. If my opponent has set up the majority of his gang in such a small area I'm glad as I will have board control and freedom of movement. If this is being kept for a later in game gambit then this death star is also a lovely target for crossfire and opens up the overseer to being left unattended with generally not much more than an autopistol to defend them self as they chase to keep after everyone.
I don't know what level of terrain you are using but there's not going to be 4+ easy targets to spot off the bat in the first turn when this combo is going to really play off as it requires such a close formation to achieve it.
It would also mean the majority of the gang has all had it turn if we use the 5 (possible 4-7 depending on extras like cult icon etc) gangers and you now have activation freedom for your gang as most games are usually 7-8 models a side. This is pretty much the same as having the 2nd turn in the old edition.
If both the leader and champ have both burned a tactic as well even better as that should be the end of the nasty surprises (ave 2 tactics a game) unless they are a fellow Delaque.
But that isn't the rules. At all. It only cannot make an extra Group Activation (X) as PART OF the initial Group Activation. Which this isn't. It's fduring Overseer. Something else entirely. And that's the rub.
That's one core problem with Overseer giving a full extra Activation. Another core problem is allowing for a new trigger for tactics cards. So many tactics cards trigger with "Activate a fighter." and then you play the card to affect that activated fighter. And all of those could then be played on each the Activating Leader, and the Overseer Activated Champion.
As for your caveats -- they don't need to be written for the "Overseer is Actions but not Activation." They are already in the rules.
A) Since you are not Activating, there is no free turn to face at the start of the Activation, you do need to use an action to move. Check.
B) Since you are not Activating, there is nothing to give an additional Activation to the pets in question. Check.
C) Since you are not Activating, tactics cards played on an Activating fighter already cannot be played on them Check.
D) Since you are not Activating, you cannot initiate a Group Activation. Check.
All of those are already inherent in that first (Overseer gives Actions not Activation) interpretation. They aren't caveats that need to be listed. They aren't exceptions to the rule. They are not things that happen when a fighter gets an Action without being Activated. They don't happen during Overwatch, for example. None of those caveats need to be written out, because they only trigger when a fighter is Activated, and the fighter isn't being activated, but only given two Actions.
All of those ARE concerns though for the second (Overseer gives an Activation so that both Overseer and Target are Activated during the same Activation) interpretation. Because in that interpretation, all of those are then in the rules.
A) Since you are Activating each, both the Overseer and the target each get a free turn to face.
B) Since you are Activating each, both the overseer and the target must Group Activate (Exotic Beast) to any they own.
C) Since you are Activating each, tactics cards that trigger on Activating a friendly fighter can be separately played on each the Overseer and the target,
D) Since you are Activating each, both the Overseer and the target can separately initiate Group Activation (X) on their nearby fighters, because they are two Activations.
That is the one that you want to apply a caveat to - an exception to the rule that when Activating, they can start a Group Activation. Because, again, Overseer on a fighter isn't using Group Activation on the target. So the target, even if they separately were part of a separate Group Activation by even the Overseer fighter, can start their own, separate Group Activation as part of the Overseer's granted-to-the-target Activation. Saying they coult not activate their pet, or could not start a Group Activation, THAT would be the needed caveat, and rules exeption, if you wanted to prevent that sort of mess.
True they would have likely Group Activated their entire crew. But it is still messy. Nesting Group Activations is messy. Nesting Activations is messy.
And while I recognize that you consider it entirely obvious that the writers intend for Activations to be able to happen inside other Activations, that really isn't at all obvious, despite your certainty.
Similarly, I recognize that you aer certain that the text "That fighter can immediately make two actions as though it were their turn to activate" and the text "The fighter immediately Activates" are obviously identical, but that really isn't at all obvious, despite your certainty.
There honestly, really is subjective interpretation needed. And happening. Including by you.
[Edit: Though this is slowly edging me around to the idea that Overseer does NOT give an Activation, but rather simply two Actions. Despite our own table here at home assuming that Overseer gives Activation. The mess has not yet happened, here, as a concrete example.]
Okay the target is still using the original overseers umbrella activation, so until all members of the group have fully completed all actions including the overseers transferred actions and the targets own two actions, it would still be within the same group activation.
If the overseer were to target a different target to the initial group they could call a group activation as they have not already been a target of it during this activation.
Yet again this theoretical gaminess is pushing an argument to it's most tenuous point to try and prove itself.
Yet again I ask if your interpretation has four major changes to how a player takes its
Two actions as though it were their turn to activate, why are none of them noted?
Bar you don't need a ready marker, as who's going to use overseer on someone with pets or a heavy weapon user that's unable to shift on the spot? They are game changing changes not just things that might be forgotten.
I will repeat I am not a fan of this skill and generally do my best to steer people from taking it wherever possible as it can be abused against beginners, but is also very easy to find counters to in campaigns without having to impose additional unwritten hampers to it that are not in the book and imposed by someone's possible interpretation of whether they used a different verb of the same word.
If the overseer were to target a different target to the initial group they could call a group activation as they have not already been a target of it during this activation.
Yet again this theoretical gaminess is pushing an argument to it's most tenuous point to try and prove itself.
Yet again I ask if your interpretation has four major changes to how a player takes its
Two actions as though it were their turn to activate, why are none of them noted?
Bar you don't need a ready marker, as who's going to use overseer on someone with pets or a heavy weapon user that's unable to shift on the spot? They are game changing changes not just things that might be forgotten.
I will repeat I am not a fan of this skill and generally do my best to steer people from taking it wherever possible as it can be abused against beginners, but is also very easy to find counters to in campaigns without having to impose additional unwritten hampers to it that are not in the book and imposed by someone's possible interpretation of whether they used a different verb of the same word.
Last edited:
No, the target is using the Overseer's Overseer ability. That's not Group Activation. That's Overseer. And if Overseer gives a full Activation, it's free and clear to use a Group Activation. Heck, for Exotic Beasts, it must use the Group Activation. Again, mess.
And again, the "Overseer gives Actions but not Activation" [not "MY" interpretation, but "THE OTHER" interpretation to "Overseer gives an Activation and not just two Actions"] makes NO changes to the way the target fighter takes Actions. Zero changes to the way a fighter takes two Actions. So there are no changes to note. Any more than there are for, say, Got Your Six, which also gives an Action but not an Activation. And it too, does not mention that since it is not an Activation, the things that happen specifically with an Activation don't happen. So again, there are no exceptions to note, since there aren't exceptions.
But I recognize that this is going back in circles.
And again, the "Overseer gives Actions but not Activation" [not "MY" interpretation, but "THE OTHER" interpretation to "Overseer gives an Activation and not just two Actions"] makes NO changes to the way the target fighter takes Actions. Zero changes to the way a fighter takes two Actions. So there are no changes to note. Any more than there are for, say, Got Your Six, which also gives an Action but not an Activation. And it too, does not mention that since it is not an Activation, the things that happen specifically with an Activation don't happen. So again, there are no exceptions to note, since there aren't exceptions.
But I recognize that this is going back in circles.
If the target of over seer has already been group activated at the start of the player alternation it can't be involved in a second until that group activation has reached it's conclusion, which means it could not call a second group activation under any circumstances even through the additional out of sync activation, which would have to have been completed for the group activation to have finally come to an end and the rule at the end of group activations has completed.
I would be very surprised if anyone would want to even bother trying this extremely contrived tactic and even if they did, would you then play them again and if you were to play them would you not just say"No" that's not very sportsmanlike? I would be a lot blunter and tell them to squat on a chainsword if I was being nice, but hey ho...
Also my question still stands if the target of the overseer skill is NOT;
A) allowed to change facing (as though it were their turn to activate).
B) allowed to use pets (as though it were their turn to activate)
C) able to use tactic cards (as though it were their turn to activate)
D) able to make group activations (as though it were their turn to activate) Only possible if no other group activations have already occurred this player alternation that already include the target fighter.
Why were none of these included when they updated the skill to need an LD test?
Whereas RAW you can act as normal bar not needing a ready marker?
Edited post topsy clarification.
I would be very surprised if anyone would want to even bother trying this extremely contrived tactic and even if they did, would you then play them again and if you were to play them would you not just say"No" that's not very sportsmanlike? I would be a lot blunter and tell them to squat on a chainsword if I was being nice, but hey ho...
Also my question still stands if the target of the overseer skill is NOT;
A) allowed to change facing (as though it were their turn to activate).
B) allowed to use pets (as though it were their turn to activate)
C) able to use tactic cards (as though it were their turn to activate)
D) able to make group activations (as though it were their turn to activate) Only possible if no other group activations have already occurred this player alternation that already include the target fighter.
Why were none of these included when they updated the skill to need an LD test?
Whereas RAW you can act as normal bar not needing a ready marker?
Edited post topsy clarification.
Last edited:
I
Isn't "allowed to turn on the spot" per standard actions during an activation? And not per standard action itself?
Overseer as written:
It sounds like the confusion...again...is coming from the phrase "as though it were their turn to activate". They really should have left this phrase out and the skill would have been 100% more clear. Like all these things this is probably a discussion to have with your arbitrator--poor arbitrators, they have to deal with so many poorly written rules.
In my opinion, the intent of this skill is to transfer the overseeing model's actions to another model. In that regard I would say they don't get the benefits of being the activating model--group activating, pet activating, free rotation as part of activating, etc. They just get to take 2 actions and follow the rules for those actions.
That said my opinion is as good as the next persons, talk to your arbitrator.
It sounds like the confusion...again...is coming from the phrase "as though it were their turn to activate". They really should have left this phrase out and the skill would have been 100% more clear. Like all these things this is probably a discussion to have with your arbitrator--poor arbitrators, they have to deal with so many poorly written rules.
In my opinion, the intent of this skill is to transfer the overseeing model's actions to another model. In that regard I would say they don't get the benefits of being the activating model--group activating, pet activating, free rotation as part of activating, etc. They just get to take 2 actions and follow the rules for those actions.
That said my opinion is as good as the next persons, talk to your arbitrator
.
So that makes five fundamental changes (loss of change of facing and pet activation process and removing two less important options) to how you would make actions with your target fighter but only the lack of need for a ready marker noted for new players to RAW....?
The changes you are adding to the rule completely change how you would target models with this skill, the main use of this skill being to give actions to heavy weapons without suspensors, which if they can't change face as usual....
This is a case of overthinking a simple rule to try and mitigate what is an OP skill at campaign start.
So how would you write Overseer to run in this manner, eg
Order (double); active fighter takes LD test if successful target fighter within 6" immediately takes two actions.......
With a mind to making this the shortest possible text box to match the other rules.
Whilst making sure it is clear you can't take those four other standard activation options?
The changes you are adding to the rule completely change how you would target models with this skill, the main use of this skill being to give actions to heavy weapons without suspensors, which if they can't change face as usual....
This is a case of overthinking a simple rule to try and mitigate what is an OP skill at campaign start.
So how would you write Overseer to run in this manner, eg
Order (double); active fighter takes LD test if successful target fighter within 6" immediately takes two actions.......
With a mind to making this the shortest possible text box to match the other rules.
Whilst making sure it is clear you can't take those four other standard activation options?
Also for consideration;
So:
1. Overwatch skill
2. Overseer skill
3. Got Your Six skill
4. Swift Justice tactics card
5. Reaction Fire tactics card
6. Last Gasp tactics card
7. Snap Fire tactics card
Overwatch; they can target an already visible target, see shooting rules and assesment of target priority. no need to add a change of facing rule or note saying as though it were their turn to activate as it can only be used against models in the 90 degrees arc of visibility.
Over watch; target gets two actions as if it were their turn to activate as usual, exception; does not need ready marker spent.
Got your six; as soon as a visible enemy fighter declares, see target assesment again (also no note to say as though it were their activation,) if not in 90degree arc they are not viable action does not trigger.
Swift justice; allows a shoot action against a viable model who has taken a fighter from your team out of action. See target assesment, no note to say as though it were their turn to activate.
Reaction fire may make a shoot action, see target assesment rule. No note to say as though it were their turn.
Last gasp; may make a shoot action, no note to say as though it were their turn, see target assesment rules.
Snapfire; may make a shoot action against a target that moves into the 90 degree vision arc, no note to say as though it were their activation.
So:
1. Overwatch skill
2. Overseer skill
3. Got Your Six skill
4. Swift Justice tactics card
5. Reaction Fire tactics card
6. Last Gasp tactics card
7. Snap Fire tactics card
Overwatch; they can target an already visible target, see shooting rules and assesment of target priority. no need to add a change of facing rule or note saying as though it were their turn to activate as it can only be used against models in the 90 degrees arc of visibility.
Over watch; target gets two actions as if it were their turn to activate as usual, exception; does not need ready marker spent.
Got your six; as soon as a visible enemy fighter declares, see target assesment again (also no note to say as though it were their activation,) if not in 90degree arc they are not viable action does not trigger.
Swift justice; allows a shoot action against a viable model who has taken a fighter from your team out of action. See target assesment, no note to say as though it were their turn to activate.
Reaction fire may make a shoot action, see target assesment rule. No note to say as though it were their turn.
Last gasp; may make a shoot action, no note to say as though it were their turn, see target assesment rules.
Snapfire; may make a shoot action against a target that moves into the 90 degree vision arc, no note to say as though it were their activation.
If the Overseer skill is intended to NOT give Activation, but simply Actions:
If the Overseer skill is intended to YES give Activation, and not simply Actions:
Provided since you request them. But really, to reiterate:
Last edited:
"when it is a player's turn, they choose one of the models within their gang that is ready and perform a number of actions with it. This is referred to as 'activating' the model." Page 101 core rulebook definition of activating.
Overseer ; target takes two actions as if it were their turn to activate, even if they are not ready. If they are ready, these actions do not remove their ready marker.
Changing facing; when a standing fighter is activated, they may turn to face any direction.
Overseer ; target takes two actions as if it were their turn to activate, even if they are not ready. If they are ready, these actions do not remove their ready marker.
Changing facing; when a standing fighter is activated, they may turn to face any direction.
In my opinion having it be a "real" activation opens up too many edge cases--such as group and pet activations--and quite frankly makes an already strong skill bonkers broken and a NPE (negative play experience).
For me, regardless how it's written in the rulebook, I'd play it as @Aulenback wrote:
At the end of the day is having a conversation like this during playing a game fun?
Unsolicited personal opinion they should really remove this skill and replace it something else, but that's unlikely to happen.
For me, regardless how it's written in the rulebook, I'd play it as @Aulenback wrote:
As it feels like the most simple version to deal with.
At the end of the day is having a conversation like this during playing a game fun?
Unsolicited personal opinion they should really remove this skill and replace it something else, but that's unlikely to happen.
As a sidenote, the whole notion of transferring an entire activation is completely broken. Kill Team which receives most of GW's balance focus has some similar abilities, but mostly it is limited to transfer only 1 action. Even fewer can transfer both actions (effectively their entire activation), but it has to be divided among 2 different targets. Furthermore, it's not immediately. They have to wait their turn to get the extra action. Finally, nobody in that entire game can ever gain more than +1 action. Normal is 2 actions per activations, elites (ie. space marines) got 3 actions per activation. Nobody can activate twice as far as I know, but there are some out-of-sync bonus actions. And I think it was a good move by Kill Team to just skip facing arc...
Unfortunately the skill was written before the consideration of pets, which do cause it to become messy, came into things as its from the very re release.
Your quite right it is far too overpowered and would be best removed, if not neutered in some further way than it has been at least.
As it has to many loopholes for unscrupulous people to create that NPE as you put it.
But as aulenbacks description is written it is the same bar that added line "as though it were their turn to activate. " Has been removed. Which is and has been the point if it was not intentional to have added a verb of activate.
The "As though" (definition 'as if') has been given it's differentiation to the standard activation with the description of it's variation in this case not needing ready marker.
Same as webbed treat them 'as if' (same meaning 'as though' followed by it's deviation from how it is a standard serious injury.
Both have followed same format and used same sloppy language but have the same meaning raw.
I also repeat, I don't take this skill or recommend it however to avoid that conflict of interpretation Vs raw and to allow for my opponent to create a story worthy alpha strike or as is more the case when my usual group play a cavalcade of calamities which is often more story worthy, I would let them have a go as if they can catch me with my pants down i deserve it. However the only people I've ever played who takes it are rookies who I would not want to be that guy with and say no you need to apply all of these differences to normal way you have learned to play and make actions.
For anecdotal purposes only, I put the question to the local Gw manager and the two tournament 40k players who were in the shop today whilst grabbing some paint and they took ten minutes to all read the appropriate sections of the shop copy rulebook and agree Raw you should be treated to all intents and purpose as if they were starting their own activation bar the loss of ready status.
Your quite right it is far too overpowered and would be best removed, if not neutered in some further way than it has been at least.
As it has to many loopholes for unscrupulous people to create that NPE as you put it.
But as aulenbacks description is written it is the same bar that added line "as though it were their turn to activate. " Has been removed. Which is and has been the point if it was not intentional to have added a verb of activate.
The "As though" (definition 'as if') has been given it's differentiation to the standard activation with the description of it's variation in this case not needing ready marker.
Same as webbed treat them 'as if' (same meaning 'as though' followed by it's deviation from how it is a standard serious injury.
Both have followed same format and used same sloppy language but have the same meaning raw.
I also repeat, I don't take this skill or recommend it however to avoid that conflict of interpretation Vs raw and to allow for my opponent to create a story worthy alpha strike or as is more the case when my usual group play a cavalcade of calamities which is often more story worthy, I would let them have a go as if they can catch me with my pants down i deserve it. However the only people I've ever played who takes it are rookies who I would not want to be that guy with and say no you need to apply all of these differences to normal way you have learned to play and make actions.
For anecdotal purposes only, I put the question to the local Gw manager and the two tournament 40k players who were in the shop today whilst grabbing some paint and they took ten minutes to all read the appropriate sections of the shop copy rulebook and agree Raw you should be treated to all intents and purpose as if they were starting their own activation bar the loss of ready status.
I've been staying involved, and what if the "as if it was their activation" was there to ensure action type was covered?
Ie can't use the same basic (shoot), and or allow for a double action?
If it reads as two actions you get into the debate of if you can take 2 shoot actions (even without fast shot) and disallowing heavy weapon shoot (double action without suspension). Or even two charges! It says two actions!, you could read that as any two actions regardless of "during activation" restrictions. 2 doubles is technically 2 actions that counts as 4...
Ie can't use the same basic (shoot), and or allow for a double action?
If it reads as two actions you get into the debate of if you can take 2 shoot actions (even without fast shot) and disallowing heavy weapon shoot (double action without suspension). Or even two charges! It says two actions!, you could read that as any two actions regardless of "during activation" restrictions. 2 doubles is technically 2 actions that counts as 4...
Similar threads
