N18 Few clarifications

[Tupavko]

So community what are your opinions on the following questions:

1 - If a fighter uses a weapon with Versatile trait against a model with a side-arm trait, can a model with a side-arm trait make reaction attacks if the two are non in base to base contact.
For ex. a Cawdor brethren with a polearm attacking an Orlock ganger with 2 stub guns.

2 - Can a model with a versatile weapon perform a Coup de Grace free action. As written CdG can be done only if within 1'', but no model can enter 1'' area of another model unless it performes a charge. This creates a paradox for 1'' Versatile weapons such as the Greatsword...
3 - When using the ride-by rule from Ash Wastes, is a fighter allowed to continue his movement if he has some left once he has performed his single attack? And if he Severely Injures the other fighter, is he allowed to perform a free Coup de Grace action?
NB - As they are now the rules imply that a fighter each time it moves within 1" of one enemy fighter can make one single attack against that fighter. Since it is not specified as "move (simple action" or "charge (double action) at the moment a fighter could use drive-by rules even if crawling while Seriously injured, or while retreating, or while screaming around while on fire

.

I know Versatile has been a s**t show since the beginning but was wondering what was the general opinion about these few questions.

 

[JayTee]

#1 No. In order to make Reaction attacks you need to be Engaging your target, and unless you've got your own Versatile weapon then you are not Engaging the target (In this case the Cawdor is Engaging the Orlock, but the reverse is not true). Similarly you can't use a Sidearm at Versatile range when attacking, the Sidearm effectively only works in B2B contact with meleeing someone.

#2 Somewhat unclear. Our current interpretation is that 1" Versatile weapons are effectively 1.000(...)1" Versatile weapons. You place the two fighters (effectively) 1" apart, but for all rules purposes they are outside of 1" which does mean they can't CdG fighters. Our reasoning is that generally the benefit of a Versatile weapon is that you can attack someone without risk of Reaction attacks unless they too have a Versatile weapon, but the downside is that you can't CdG as you're too far away; our interpretation preserves this.

3.1# Yes you can continue your movement. The wording is that you are 'interrupting' your movement so you should be able to carry on.

The wording makes mention of the potential for a Reaction attack to cause you to get knocked down, which would presumably halt your movement, but the rules are not clear on how this can occur as 'I Get Knocked Down' only occurs when being hit by a ranged attack (Which a Reaction attack explicitly is not). We've chosen to ignore the latter half of the Ride by paragraph as it makes no sense.

3.2# Maybe, it depends if you're within 1" again. The risk of going within 1" during a ride-by is that you can be hit by reaction attack(s), the benefit is that you can CdG.

 

[PalatineKatinka]

1. No, the enemy fighter can only Reaction attack with Versatile weapons. Neither the attacker nor their opponent can use Sidearms outside of base-to-base engagement.

2. Versatile allows an attacker to engage a target at a distance "equal to or less than" the weapon's long range while CdG requires being "within" 1". In the case of 1" Versatile range I'd take this to mean they can attack at exactly 1" away but not be able to CdG unless marginally closer. In practical terms players will need to agree when models are moved what the intent is. Typically they will have to be 1" apart unless a Charge has occurred in which case the player moving the model should say if their intent is to stop at 1" away or move to within 1" (as normal, this should be stated before the charging fighter's movement is measured).

3. I believe the intent of Ride By is that the fighter can continue moving after the interuption of the combat has been resolved. If the fighter was within 1" when the combat happens then they should have the option to CdG as part of the combat sequence. (Or they can choose to Consolidate, gaining a bonus 2" move in the middle of their move. Consolidate is another type of move that Ride By probably shouldn't apply to but, by current wording, maybe does...)

 

[matfeheld]

Similarly you can't use a Sidearm at Versatile range when attacking, the Sidearm effectively only works in B2B contact with meleeing someone.

Can someone confirm this? It's not allowed to use sidearm as attacker when using versatile (and not in B2B)? I don't find this rule somewhere.

 

[SirWalterManny]

Can someone confirm this? It's not allowed to use sidearm as attacker when using versatile (and not in B2B)? I don't find this rule somewhere.

I don’t think anything in the rules would support this, but nothing would stop you making a ranged attack with the sidearm against the other fighter.

The VERSATILE trait allows you to make close combat attacks outside of the usual base-to-base requirement for melee combat, for weapons with the VERSATILE trait. It does not extend that benefit to other weapons which may usually be used in close combat.
If you are outside of base-to-base combat, you can either make a Fight (Basic) action with a VERSATILE weapon, or a Ranged (Basic) action with a sidearm, or potentially both if you have sufficient actions.

I think the key piece of text is:
“An enemy fighter may not in turn be Engaging the fighter armed with the Versatile weapon unless they too are armed with a Versatile weapon, and so may not be able to make Reaction attacks.”

If a sidearm could be used at versatile range, it would logically also allow a sidearm to be used as part of reaction attacks at the same range, but this is specifically prohibited with reaction attacks limited to only weapons with a VERSATILE trait.

[EDIT -POSTED TO EARLY BEFORE ADDING THIS FINAL PARA, BUT MAKING CLEAR BECAUSE CAN SEE WAS ONE REACTION WHILST I WAS EDITING] But the Versatile rules are poorly written; they essentially say a model with a weapon with the Versatile weapon allows that model to engage another in melee, without being in base to base combat and as long as they are within long range of that Versatile weapon. I think the counter to saying you could also use a sidearm by virtue of the VERSATILE trait allowing you to be in melee, is (1) the above text strictly prohibiting weapons with SIDEARM being used for Reaction Attacks, and (2) the MELEE trait just allows weapons with that trait to be used by a fighter in close combat, so exactly the same logic would then apply to other MELEE weapons, which is clearly not intended.

 

[MusingWarboss]

Well my limited understanding is that versatile is designed to break the base to base for melee rule. You can’t CdG unless you’re in BtB so, no, can’t be done.

Sidearm is the rule they shoved in to allow pistols to be used in btb, anything outside of that would be a shoot action.

So sidearm cant allow reaction attacks, because they can’t perform a ranged attack other than shoot. If they could you’d end up with a situation where every time someone with a pistol shot at someone else with pistol and claimed it was a ranged cc attack then the other person could fire back, leading to firefights over 12” or similar. Which isn’t cc. Clearly.

Y’know this never used to be a problem in the old rules because they didn’t have these silly worded traits.

 

[daveh]

1 no
2 yes

 

[SirWalterManny]

1 no
2 yes

2 (coup de grace) … No.

Fighter is not within 1”, and cannot be within 1” unless they have moved to be in base-to-base contact as per 1” rule.

“COUP DE GRACE (SIMPLE): If this fighter is not Engaged with any other fighters, pick one Seriously Injured enemy fighter within 1" and within the vision arc of this fighter. That fighter immediately goes Out of Action.”