Field save?

So, you are just going to ignore the rule I quoted that states save rolls can only be attempted against wounding hits then?
Skills work differently because they are not save rolls, are not mentioned in the Armour save rules and don't replace armour saves. Completely different mechanics.

I get that you think field armour should also work against Gas weapons?
 
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Dey see field rollin'
Dey hatin'

Dice rollin' dirty

And yes, the general paragraph of the Field section contradicts the rules of wargear elements in it.

The wording on them is the same as with skills, and isn't called a save in the wording.
We eitger ignore the general field paragraph or we ignore the specific wargear rule.

A case of Lex specialis to my eye, plain and simple.

P.s. unless specifically stated, they should work anything that HITS, meaning anything but special effects like psychic powers or tactical cards that are not _takes_a_hit worded
 
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Yep, pick your poison, as they say.

RAW we have two contradictory rules, and have to choose which applies.

Our locals chose the Ward side, some other community might choose invuln side.
Others might choose invuln-save-yet-after-hit side.

But in most cases, n @enyoss is right and itsi a show-off luxury item, that doesn't pay off.
 
Well, as was pointed out to me in a previous thread, GW has said that armor saves ARE saves vs THE HIT, but it is rolled after the wound roll "for expediency".

I don't see how it saves that much time. It could be:
Attacker rolls hit, defender rolls armor save, attacker rolls wound if AS failed... etc.​
instead of:
Attacker rolls hit, attacker rolls wound, defender rolls armor if wound successful... etc.​

Statistically it should work out the same, so my personal preference would be to do it this way just because it makes more sense. If your armor Save is 5+ you should save about 33% of the time. Whether that's 33% less Injury rolls, or 33% less Wound rolls it all works out the same in the end. And Compendium rules for armor saves say that you get a save for any hit that results in an injury roll, for any reason, unless the weapon used has a trait that specifically says it ignores armor saves (like Gas and Web).

However, I don't think a successful armor save, even when done in second order, means that you do not get Pinned. Bullets bouncing off your armor is still going to cause you to at least flinch, if not duck for cover. (And we've also been told that being Pinned is sometimes as simple as being distracted.) So, I don't think either field saves nor armor saves, regardless of when they are rolled should save you from being pinned. If a flash-bang goes off or you get teleported - whatever - I would think you're still Pinned.

That's my opinion, for what it's worth.
 
In the case of Field armour, it's important to know whether they are rolled for all hits or only wounding hits, as they have additional effects other than simply cancelling the hit. If you roll for each hit, Conversion field will flashbang more often, Displacer field will teleport more often, and Refractor field will run out sooner.

The rational behind armour saves coming last is that fewer dice will be rolled in total (as, on average, armour saves have more chance to fail than wound rolls have to succeed) and that it lets the attacker roll all their dice before the defender rolls any of theirs. Of course, the latter doesn't work in Necromunda since the Injury rolls that are added at the end of the sequence.
 
Rules don't have "Wounding hits" term, armour saves are rolled against WOUNDS, not hits.

Overall amount of dice rolled isn't modified, because effective ward save taken against a hit also mitigates requirement to roll for Wounding.
amd other rolls that would otherwise apply

If we take the whole sequence, it looks like this (if you played X-wing you are familiar with so-called nested actions and nested triggers)
we're skipping the choose weapon choose range, those are not actually required for understanding
1. Roll to hit + roll ammo dice (rapid fire might make more rolls for steps 2+)
> fail = end sequence
2. Roll for ward save from skills and\or wargear (potentially up to three in melee) for every hit unless specifically prohibited
> success = end sequence, apply extra effects if dictated by the rule of ability\wargear

3. Fighter gets pinned
4. roll D6 to see how many WOUNDS Scattershot rule provides (if present)
5. roll to wound (or D6 in case of Gas or Toxic)
> fail = end sequence
6. Armour save for every successful wound unless "no armour saves allowed" is specifically stated (gas, effects of marksman skill on 6+)
> success = end sequence

7. Apply damage (effects)
8. For every point of damage applied to W1 model roll Injury dice
9. Apply additional effects (D6 on Radphage, Blaze, Flash)
10. Change fighter state if necessary
 
Rules don't have "Wounding hits" term, armour saves are rolled against WOUNDS, not hits.
Same difference. You know exactly what I mean and it doesn't change the outcome.
If you want to be pedantic, armour saves are not always made against wounds either (in the case of hit that result in an Injury roll without wounding). Let's not be pedantic.

Overall amount of dice rolled isn't modified, because effective ward save taken against a hit also mitigates requirement to roll for Wounding.
amd other rolls that would otherwise apply
Sigh.
The original assumption (and I'm talking Oldhammer here, since that's where the hit-wound-save sequence originated) is that most armour rolls would succeed on 5+ or 6+ (or that there would be no armour roll at all), while most wound rolls would be in the 3+ to 5+ range. Also (still Oldhammer), dice would be rolled by the bucket. This means that, on average, less dice would be rolled with the hit-wound-save sequence than with a hit-save-wound sequence. And of course (and more importantly), it also limits the back-and-forth between players.
Basically, instead of having player A roll 20 dice, then player B roll 10 dice, then player A roll 8 dice, you have player A roll 20 dice, then 10 dice, then player B roll 5 dice. Less dice, less back-and-forth, time saved.

This reasoning, of course, doesn't translate well to Necromunda (you roll way less dice at once and the need for Injury dice means that back-and-forth will happen anyway), which is why I'd personally prefer a more natural hit-save-wound sequence for this system. But old habits die hard at Geedubs I guess.
 
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THE only real reason for Save rolls to happen last is the psychological effect. This hasn't changed a bit since le olden DnD timeth when prehistorical beasts and dragons roamed the lands

Order in which you decrease the amount of rolls doesn't alternate the amount of rolls made nor final result.
Well, just because the order of multiplication does not change the outcome.
100 dice * (3\6) * (4\6) * (1\6) (4+ to hit 3+ to wound, 6+ save, like a goliath shooting bolter at mesh t3 van saar)

But yes, that also reduces the time lag between shifting players, what is important when using BUCKETLOADS OF DICE (without sharing said dice) when it's faster to pick out dice and roll the remaining ones. Doesn't really matter on skirmish scale.

We tend to roll for armour before we rolled for toxic, because that means no need to roll those 3 dice and sum them up. Save is there and there's no more need to measure toxicity.

Telling the truth the best sequence I've seen so far is X-wing. I roll dice, you roll dice, we compare them. No cascading rolls.
 
Except in X-wing it's you(attacker) roll, I modify, you modify, then I roll(defense), you modify, then I modify. Where modify includes re-rolls. But it is at least well defined.

Similar issue on sequence of hits got raised on Facebook by following scenario - blast weapon hits two fighters with fields, one displacement, one photo/diffusion watsit. Does the guy who gets displaced get affected by the the flash of the other guys field( assuming move takeshim out of effect). Hit sequence becomes an issue again.
 
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THE only real reason for Save rolls to happen last is the psychological effect. This hasn't changed a bit since le olden DnD timeth when prehistorical beasts and dragons roamed the lands

The other time is when the result of the wound roll has some special ability which might impact the odds of a successful armour save... I dont think there is anything in the current Necro ruleset, but I am certain there are other GW products where an additional armour modifier has resulted from a particular 'wound' roll.
 
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The other time is when the result of the wound roll has some special ability which might impact the odds of a successful armour save... I dont think there is anything in the current Necro ruleset, but I am certain there are other GW products where an additional armour modifier has resulted from a particular 'wound' roll.
Good point! Actually, there is one Trait that does something like this: Seismic.
Seismic said:
if the wound roll for a Seismic weapon is a natural 6, no save roll can be made against that attack.
Assuming Field armour gives you a 'save roll' (as strongly implied by the wording of the Power trait and the 'Resolve hit' rules) then they can't do anything before the Wound roll (or lack thereof for Toxin & co.) is made, because (in the case of Seismic attacks) you need the result of the Wound roll to know whether a save roll is even allowed.
 
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The other time is when the result of the wound roll has some special ability which might impact the odds of a successful armour save... I dont think there is anything in the current Necro ruleset, but I am certain there are other GW products where an additional armour modifier has resulted from a particular 'wound' roll.

There is one here, in the Shooting skills, marksman or something. Roll a 6 on To Wound, and voilà, no armour saves allowed.
That doesn't really help with the whole problem, GeeDubs just can't make the right system.

All there is to do is just create Saves section of the rules
like (example)
There are multiple ways of avoiding harm, called saves. A save is performed by rolling D6
Armour saves: The most basic saves, provided by Armour or (un)natural protection. They can be modified or even negated.
Invulnerable saves: Advanced tech or otherwordly influence allowes you to avoid modification. These saves are taken instead of Armour saves, and can never be modified.
Ward saves: provided by skills, precognition or power fields, they allow one to avoid getting hit whatsoever, and are to be used just after the opponent has landed a successful Hit. They cannot be modified.​


But the main initial idea behind SAVING is that it's supposed to be the last roll, when you save yourself. Saving before the whose sequence does sometimes feel anti-climactic...
especially when you're a 485 point beast that just rolled three 5+ fields in a row with NOPE NOPE NOPE sound. It sounds fun but your opponent just wants to throw you and the dice out of the window.

Good point! Actually, there is one Trait that does something like this: Seismic.

Assuming Field armour gives you a 'save roll' (as strongly implied by the wording of the Power trait and the 'Resolve hit' rules) then they can't do anything before the Wound roll is made, because (in the case of Seismic attacks) you need the result of the Wound roll to know whether a save roll is even allowed.

Funny enough, it is not called a Saving roll in the wording, just as it's not called save in skills or familiar powers.
It's called a save in the paragraph at the beginning of fields section, but not in the rules for fields themselves.
And if we don't consider them saves, and take them against Hits as per RAW, Marksman and Seismic effects trigger and still have effect, denying the use of armour roll on step 6.

Though I am sure GeeDubs will (as always) do the opposite of what they've written and act as if it was the intention
I shall advocate for RAW, especially considering this RAW is more logical than not.
 
I would strongly advise against strict RAW, considering how often RAW has been proven wrong with N17. Sadly, Neomunda rules (even the much improved N18 version) are simply not written carefully enough to allow for a strict RAW reading, and you need to try and guess what the RAI are.

As mentioned in my previous post, there are several instances in the books were Field armour are (very) strongly implied to allow for 'save rolls'. Here are two examples:
Power trait said:
no save roll can be made against the attack (except Field armour save rolls)
Resolve hit said:
if a fighter wears both mesh armour and a refractor field, they may only attempt a save roll against a successful wound roll with one of those items

Honestly, it just look like that the wargear descriptions in Gangs of the Underhive have been written by a completely different person working on different assumptions.
Btw, what skills are you referring to? I thought it would be Dodge, but after re-reading it it only applies to wounds (funnily, it doesn't apply to Toxin hits RAW, while I'm pretty sure it should RAI). Not sure the familiars should weight much since they are from pre-N18 publications that are still in need for an update.
 
1. Dodge, agilty, 6+ Ward
2. Step aside, combat, 5+(or 4+?) Ward against melee attacks
3. Familiar (might be changed)
4.Cariatid (or how is that rarity 15 beast spelled)
5. Two Goliath theme tactical cards with same wording but no roll, behemoth and ceramite skin (same but only against Blaze weapons)

So hit-negating isn't that special, it's just that it doesn't fit into general resolution order.
 
Thanks for the list. So:

Dodge applies to Wounds, not Hits. If it works, the fighter should still be Pinned. Though it does have a strange wording in regards to Blast and Template that implies some kind of time travel to cancel the hit before it happens but only after it wounds... because temporal paradoxes are fun!

Step aside is a completely different Initiative-based mechanics that only works in cc (where you can't get Pinned to begin with). I agree that it's fairly clear that this one happens before Wound rolls are made.

The Caryatid's Omen of fortune is similar to Step aside but Willpower-based instead of Initiative-based. This one is very interesting indeed, for two reasons:
  • contrary to Step aside, it works against ranged attacks. But it also is very clearly stated that the check happens immediately after a successful hit roll and can be used to avoid pinning.
  • contrary to Dodge, it doesn't make the miniature physically move to avoid Blast and Template attacks (which is yet another proof of bad writing that similar mechanics don't have to work in the exact same way)
the Caryatid's Precognition, on the other hand, is clearly labelled as a save roll that is unaffected by Armour Piercing (which is how I think Field armour saves are supposed to work, except Precognition should still work against attacks that specifically deny armour save rolls... probably... maybe) . It should not prevent Pinning.

I'm gonna assume that cult Familiars work the same way as the Caryatid (whether it's already the case or not)
Tactic cards I'm just gonna ignore as they are very poorly written, even by the low standards of the Gang War books, and have not been updated for N18 yet (and probably never will be).

My takeaway is... that we have a bunch of similar mechanisms that all work in slightly different ways because... reasons :(:cry:
 
Precognition is the "invulnerable save" in the most literal sense.
It doesn't specify when it is applied, so it's supposed to work after wounds are rolled for.
There is an unusual thing about it though, we now have an example of a weapon with POSITIVE armour modifier, the baseball bat aka MAUL (down to 10 points, but ap+1 D2)
Technically making it possible to claim it has no armour roll, and as any model with no armour roll, having +1 gives it 6+ (gotta search the rulebook but that thing is there somewhere)

So, returning to ward saves, a Goliath with Dodge, Step aside, Caryatid, Conversion field and carapace armour gets hit with an axe.
First of all he can try to Step aside, if that fails he has Conversion field roll, then Caryatid willpower check.
if that also fails and Wound roll is made he can attempt to Dodge, then (here it gets interesting) try for a carapace armour save
What's interesting is that there IS A WAY to RAW both the paragraph and Conversion field roll rules.
A failed attempt of Conversion field roll makes (somehow) it impossible to use Carapace armour save.

And if EVERYTHING ELSE FAILED
He can throw Behemoth card and just say "Nope, I ignore than attack, and I'm not even pinned"

The main thing about it is that Armour save specifically ignores Damage, not the hit itself, and as such successful armour save doesn't help against Pinning, Blaze, Radphage or Flash.
Those rules that state "ignore the attack" do that.
 
In the case of Field armour, it's important to know whether they are rolled for all hits or only wounding hits, as they have additional effects other than simply cancelling the hit. If you roll for each hit, Conversion field will flashbang more often, Displacer field will teleport more often, and Refractor field will run out sooner.

That's true, it does make a difference with field armor. Our group has never used field armor before, so it never came up. And who says having extra effects like that is a bad thing? Still, your second paragraph acknowledges the roll coming after the Wound roll is just to reduce the number of dice rolls. So they've admitted that, logically, it should come before the Wound roll.

Also, it is completely illogical that your fighter can wait until after they know they are going to be injured to decide if they want to use their field armor: "Uh-oh, I'm going to be hit. Let's see if I will get injured... Owww! that hurt! Better go back in time and flip on that Displacement Field and teleport away before I get hit!" But, whatever.

We still do the Armor Save after the Wound roll because it works out the same, it's just one of those little illogical things we've talked about.
 
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Rules don't have "Wounding hits" term, armour saves are rolled against WOUNDS, not hits.

Well, actually... here is the wording from the Compendium, page 70:
If a hit results in a successful wound roll, or leads to an injury roll being made against the fighter for any reason...​
and
Only one save roll may be made for each hit that successfully wounds, or leads to an injury roll being made...​

If you want to get technical, it's not really the wound roll you're saving against, because you still get a save against hits that do not cause a wound roll. There are a number of weapons that now have a Damage of "-" and do not cause wounds at all, but you still get an armor save against them. The second quote seem pretty explicit that you are saving for the hit that caused the wound or injury.
 
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