N18 "Fixing" House of Blades

gaffydk

New Member
Nov 20, 2012
6
5
3
Having dipped my feet into the new edition of Necromunda, and reading a lot here on yak, there seems to be a general consensus, that my beloved Escher have gotten the shortest end of the stick, with the release of "House of ..." books.

Some of the common complaints I see are:
- Overcosted leader / champions compared to other houses
- Slow juves
- Wyldrunners + Phelynxes are bad
- Clan Chem-Alchemy are okay, but compared to the other gangs, lack-luster due to having to re-buy (and forcing you to get a Clan Chemyst early)

I would really like to hear suggestion on how to "fix" any of these issues, or other that you feel you have encountered (good and bad).

In our game I've convinced the group that the Wyldbow got buffed, and cost reduced to 5 + 5 for each ammo type.
And the possibility of a "ammo roll", on each chem, but I really like the Idea i read on here, that with a Chem-synth you could active one type of chem you have bought access to.
(And maybe the Clan chemyst, could up this to 2 uses pr game?)

Please share all you ideas and suggestions, even if it isn't something you have had a chance to implement in a game.

All the best!
 

MusingWarboss

Hive Guilder
Oct 31, 2013
2,794
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For some reason Escher have had a weird release from SG/GW generally.

I’m still bemused by the three individually released champion models or the three almost identical original resin extra weapon packs. The Phyrr cats were recalled and resculpted and the new plastics include bows and arrows and mini lizard-pets which may be “thematic*” but apparently are just more overcosted underperforming bloat.

All of which is weird as Andy Hoare (head-overseer) is the big Escher player there. Either he’s just too damn good at the game and they felt that Escher needed a nerf or the rest of the team don’t like Escher!

*their Space Amazon theme, which is less original than the 1995 punk gang.

Staffer 1 “Hey guys what clichéd things about women warriors can we stuff in?”
Staffer 2 “Amazons!!”
Staffer 3 “Crazy cat ladies!!”
Staffer 4 “They say ‘poison Is a woman’s weapon’!”
Staffer 2 “How about we make them super good, like Hollywood does?”
Staffer 1 “nah, let’s be different and make them shit”.
 
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Heart of Storm

Gang Hero
Mar 8, 2019
855
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*their Space Amazon theme, which is less original than the 1995 punk gang.

Staffer 1 “Hey guys what clichéd things about women warriors can we stuff in?”
Staffer 2 “Amazons!!”
Staffer 3 “Crazy cat ladies!!”
Staffer 4 “They say ‘poison Is a woman’s weapon’!”
Staffer 2 “How about we make them super good, like Hollywood does?”
Staffer 1 “nah, let’s be different and make them shit”.
Add in massive overuse of the Mother, Maiden and Crone archetypes from mythical witchcraft and you have a full bingocard of stereotypes.

In answer to the OP, an obvious start is to reduce the cost of Escher leaders and champions, probably by about 15 and 10 credits respectively.

Escher have similar stats to Delaque, typically having better initiative and (i seem to recall) slightly worse cool, so pricing them the same, or 5 creds more than their Delaque counterparts seems appropriate.

Much as I'd love to see the glorious return of the Escher juve-missile I think their Juves are actually pretty fairly priced they're now just cheaper, cowardlier, melee oriented gangers.

The problem is the actual fast option Escher have (the Wyld Runner) is hugely overpriced for the old Juve statline.

I'd drop the Wyld runner down to the same cost as a Juve - id also consider swapping their statlines over, although that may change their synergy with the Phelynx, that may make them more attractive to buy before tinkering with their weapon/ammo costs.
 
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Psyan

Ganger
Sep 2, 2016
91
51
18
Olympus Mons, Mars
I would definitely be in favor of some slight recosting for fighters and making chems/poisons a little more user friendly. I like the idea of only having to purchase a specific recipe once and then deciding before each match which chems/poisons are being brought to the fight.
 

JayTee

Ganger
Jun 14, 2015
203
386
63
We:
  • Tweaked the Wyld Bow so the long range only kicks in at 14", so the crippling to-hit penalty only occurs at 4" worth of range. I get what they were going with making it worse at long range, but having an effective only 9" usable range is awful;
  • Reduced the cost of the Wyld Bow ammo to 10creds each. 35 creds for the Wyld Bow + Poison is the same cost as a Needle Rifle, except the Needle Rifle has -2AP and better to-hit. WITAF?
  • Changed the whip to S rather than a flat S2 as it is in the new trade post;
  • Halved the cost of the Phelynx. We've ~halved the cost of nearly all pets as they are generally great models, and should be at least somewhat practical to play with. Only the hardcase Mastiff seems worth it on paper;
    • Though we've tweaked how pets test for becoming broken and moved this to at the end of their pseudo-group activation so you can charge with your pet first, then your fighter without risking the pet becoming broken. This might be a bit too much, it makes pets an (almost) guaranteed assist in combat. Going to be keeping an eye on this.
  • Fiddled with some of the chems namely: Removed Maiming as that's a bollocks effect, gave Chem-Syths the ability to add a Stimm as a Free Action, and a couple of +5/-5 changes to costs;
  • Dropped the cost of the Chem-Hanger-On to 50 creds.
Wyld Runners are maybe a little overpriced, 25 creds over a Juve is a lot to stomach. One thing we've considered but have yet to really try is to give Wyld Runners Infiltrate (maybe only if they buy a Phelynx?) which would justify their cost over a Juve and be pretty thematic. Or a pre-game move rather than full Infiltrate which is such a pain to balance.
 

Heart of Storm

Gang Hero
Mar 8, 2019
855
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  • Though we've tweaked how pets test for becoming broken and moved this to at the end of their pseudo-group activation so you can charge with your pet first, then your fighter without risking the pet becoming broken. This might be a bit too much, it makes pets an (almost) guaranteed assist in combat. Going to be keeping an eye on this.
See, ive always found with a whip-runner the versatile range makes it so that its quite low risk against most opponents for her to charge first, make her ineffective WS4+ S2 attacks, and then let the Phelynx push in, its just a shame that versatile doesn't help them with their attacks
 

EAfirstlast

Ganger
Aug 31, 2017
202
134
58
Alexandria, VA, USA
I mean, chopping 10 credits off the cost of a ganger is a strong start because GW decided escher gangers were costed like they still had flak armor on. You have to play with lasguns cause they are the only weapon appropriately costed. There isn't an actual discount, the cost of baked in the ganger and the discount just gets them to the same cost as anyone else with a lasgun.
 
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MrAndersson

Gang Hero
Sep 18, 2018
706
505
98
Halmstad, Sweden
I don't agree with the premise here. Escher got a huge buff with the release of HoB. They now have easy access to boltguns and discounted grenade launchers. I would say they are now on par with Orlock, ie a well balanced gang.
 
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Heart of Storm

Gang Hero
Mar 8, 2019
855
1,286
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Escher aren't the only gang with good access to boltguns and grenade launchers, they ARE however the only gang who's champions and leaders are significantly over costed when compared to other gangs running similar statlines (notably Orlock and Delaque)

I actually crunched this out once, the Death Maidens and juves are the only Escher models equivalently priced to comparable other models.
 
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Stompzilla

Ganger
Jan 11, 2013
175
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I'm not so sure about that. I don't think they're as weak as some are saying but the Escher gang are struggling a bit in my group.

The Wylde Runner weapons do seem a bit overpriced and honestly I do think they're a bit hard done by with the chem alchemy being 1 use only.

Especially considering how other gangs' special thing is permanent and even sometimes free.

Ideally, I'd like a solution that doesn't require huge reams of the book to be rewritten and would work with the underhive tools without requiring loads of finagaling.

Does anyone have any experience with simply making the chem alchemy permanent, rather than limited?
 

MusingWarboss

Hive Guilder
Oct 31, 2013
2,794
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I don't agree with the premise here. Escher got a huge buff with the release of HoB. They now have easy access to boltguns and discounted grenade launchers. I would say they are now on par with Orlock, ie a well balanced gang.
I’m not sure in which area, it seems like they’re quite expensive compared to other gangs. Also the Wyld Runners seem to be designed as some kind of scout but are mostly ineffective compared to a Juve. Also as mentioned above the Chem’s are a one-shot thing which means you need to keep buying over.

Goliaths have very easy access to bolters and grenade launchers!
 
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EAfirstlast

Ganger
Aug 31, 2017
202
134
58
Alexandria, VA, USA
I don't agree with the premise here. Escher got a huge buff with the release of HoB. They now have easy access to boltguns and discounted grenade launchers. I would say they are now on par with Orlock, ie a well balanced gang.
Boltguns are only a thing on gangers, champs have better choices in all the BG gangs. Escher do not get BG gangers
 

gaffydk

New Member
Nov 20, 2012
6
5
3
I'm not so sure about that. I don't think they're as weak as some are saying but the Escher gang are struggling a bit in my group.

The Wylde Runner weapons do seem a bit overpriced and honestly I do think they're a bit hard done by with the chem alchemy being 1 use only.

Especially considering how other gangs' special thing is permanent and even sometimes free.

Ideally, I'd like a solution that doesn't require huge reams of the book to be rewritten and would work with the underhive tools without requiring loads of finagaling.

Does anyone have any experience with simply making the chem alchemy permanent, rather than limited?
I like the Idea that the Chem-Synth, gives acces to one free Chem-Alchemy to the model that has it (Given that the clan Gang has bought the "Blueprint")


Another solution could be to give a Chem-Alchemy an "Ammo Roll", limited - rolling at the end of the game, if it was used:
- 3+ roll normally
- +1 if the model if the character have a Chem-Synth
- +1 if the gang has a Clan-Alchymist

Giving 5+ under the best circumstances.
I would really like to see the Chem-synth have maybe even more uses / interactions with chem-Alchemy
 
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Jayward

Gang Champion
Aug 4, 2020
287
450
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If I had to make one change I would give Gangers, Champions and Leaders +1 Movement. They're the ones that are overcosted and it's always bugged me that people call Escher the fast gang despite them having the same Movement as everyone else, plus slower Juves.

Doesn't touch on the massive overcosting of Chem Alchemy and the Wyld Runner, but it's thematic and gives the gang a point of difference that isn't based on a limited subset of weapons.
 
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Stompzilla

Ganger
Jan 11, 2013
175
254
63
If I had to make one change I would give Gangers, Champions and Leaders +1 Movement. They're the ones that are overcosted and it's always bugged me that people call Escher the fast gang despite them having the same Movement as everyone else, plus slower Juves.

Doesn't touch on the massive overcosting of Chem Alchemy and the Wyld Runner, but it's thematic and gives the gang a point of difference that isn't based on a limited subset of weapons.
Excluding the Death Maiden?
 

Jayward

Gang Champion
Aug 4, 2020
287
450
63
Yeah, I meant just the normal champions, not the Death Maiden. She's already undercosted and movement 6 anyway.