N18 "Fixing" House of Blades

[Stompzilla]

I've just proposed the following to the group I Arbitrate:

Wyld Runners get the bow, or a stilleto knife for free. If you want the extra ammo for the bow you pay the cost listed.

Chem alchemy changes to limited, rather than 1 use.

Night night changes to roll twice, pick the best on lasting injuries.

Stimms are a permanent upgrade like Frenzon Collars and stimm slug stashes.

The clan chymist rule "experimental elixiers" changes to the bullet merchant's rule which makes limited into scarce but only for chem alchemy.

We're entering into the third phase of our campaign now and all the gang ratings are hovering around 3,000, except for Escher who are quite a bit behind. Funnily enough, for a pretty decent W/L ratio the Escher are down by rocky the amount of creds they've spent trying to make use of their special house ability.

I'll report back with feedback, once the campaign is finished.

 

[gaffydk]

I've just proposed the following to the group I Arbitrate:

Wyld Runners get the bow, or a stilleto knife for free. If you want the extra ammo for the bow you pay the cost listed.

Chem alchemy changes to limited, rather than 1 use.

Night night changes to roll twice, pick the best on lasting injuries.

Stimms are a permanent upgrade like Frenzon Collars and stimm slug stashes.

The clan chymist rule "experimental elixiers" changes to the bullet merchant's rule which makes limited into scarce but only for chem alchemy.

We're entering into the third phase of our campaign now and all the gang ratings are hovering around 3,000, except for Escher who are quite a bit behind. Funnily enough, for a pretty decent W/L ratio the Escher are down by rocky the amount of creds they've spent trying to make use of their special house ability.

I'll report back with feedback, once the campaign is finished.

Please do - We are starting a new campaign in a week and a half, and would like to incorporate a good houserule for Chem-alchemy

 

[Stompzilla]

So far so good. We've discussed it through as a group and nobody seems to have any concerns.

The only issue to come up was whether or not you could add to an elixier as the campaign progresses.

E.g. if you buy lifting gas and then at a later stage add a second chem, do you count them as a single elixir or would you need to buy a second lifting gas as per the original wording of the HoB.

In the end we opted for being able to add to it as a campaign progresses but if you fail an ammo check, and don't have the apprentice chymist, then you'd lose both and would have to rebuild.

Mainly I advocate for this approach to keep things simple on the bookkeeping front.

We also agreed to maintain the cap of 3 chems per elixiers, which in practice means 3 chems per fighter.

No games so far (Till Fri) but I honestly can't see it throwing up any problems and, to my mind, is the easiest solution to keep track of, in Yaktribes. You just don't remove chems at the end of every game (Unless the limited check is failed) and if you take any Wyld Runners you add the Chosen weapon rather than buy it and adjust their cost down by 10.

As Arbiter for the group, I'm a big fan of simple book keeping!

 

[SweetOrbMace]

I've just proposed the following to the group I Arbitrate:

Wyld Runners get the bow, or a stilleto knife for free. If you want the extra ammo for the bow you pay the cost listed.

Chem alchemy changes to limited, rather than 1 use.

Night night changes to roll twice, pick the best on lasting injuries.

Stimms are a permanent upgrade like Frenzon Collars and stimm slug stashes.

The clan chymist rule "experimental elixiers" changes to the bullet merchant's rule which makes limited into scarce but only for chem alchemy.

We're entering into the third phase of our campaign now and all the gang ratings are hovering around 3,000, except for Escher who are quite a bit behind. Funnily enough, for a pretty decent W/L ratio the Escher are down by rocky the amount of creds they've spent trying to make use of their special house ability.

I'll report back with feedback, once the campaign is finished.

I really like these proposed changes, might have to suggest them for our upcoming campaign.

Quick question - how do you apply Limited to the chems on CC weapons? Roll an ammo dice presumably but then what d6 roll do you use to see if they run out?

Challenge I’ve had is convincing other (non-Escher) players that Escher need this support.

Another issue that came up is whether or not to give Outlaw Escher gangs access to the apprentice clan Chymist. We did eventually but it took some persuading and the added rule that black market weapons that have Chem alchemy applied also gain the Unstable trait.

 

[Stompzilla]

We decided that Melee was already a lot harder than shooting, so they get a pass on needing to roll limited for those.

 

[SweetOrbMace]

We decided that Melee was already a lot harder than shooting, so they get a pass on needing to roll limited for those.

Thanks - that makes total sense to me! Now just to convince my group…

 

[gaffydk]

Thanks - that makes total sense to me! Now just to convince my group…

One thing you could do, is to show them a few different points values

Compare Escher gangers to: Van saar gangers(or juves) , Delauqe gangers
Compare Escher champs / leaders to Delauqe / Orlock / Van saar

Try and as them what they would rather have:
try and show how quickly Chem-Alchemy becomes a credit-sink, if you try to engage in it in any meaningful way

 

[gaffydk]

Here is my attempt at revising Chem-Alchemy:

Instead of the rules in House of Blades, the following rules for Chem-Alchemy are used:

• Buying Chem-alchemy Design:
  • Instead of a gang buying a Chem-Alchemy Elixir, they buy an Chem-Alchemy Design, that enables the gang to craft that Elixir for themselves. This applies to Stimms, Toxic Ammo or Gaseous Ammo.
  • When a given design is purchased, it is recorded to the gang’s stash, like any other item, and it’s value is added to the gangs rating.
  • The initial purchase of a Design, includes one dose of the associated Elixir.
  • A apprentice Clan Chemyst can not decrease the initial cost of a Chem-alchemy design.
• Using Chem-alchemy elixirs:
  • Stimms: A fighter can start the game under any stimm they are equipped with in the pre-battle sequence, or they can administer it during the battle, to them selves, or a friendly fighter in base to base contact.
    • Administer dose to self: This can be done in two ways: Either by performing an Administer Dose (Simple) action during activation, or if the fighter is equipped with a Chem-synth, the fighter can attempt an Int check, to administer the does as a free action instead.
    • Administer dose to friendly fighter: This must be done by performing an Administer Dose (Simple) action during activation.
  • Gaseous/Toxic Ammo: In the pre battle-sequence, once crews has been selected, fighters can be equipped with available Chem-Alchemy ammo from the stash.
    • Once applied to a weapon, the weapon will change profile and Traits to reflect the ammo being used. These effects expire during the Wrap-up phase.
• Wrap-up phase: In the wrap up phase, roll for each ammo type/elixir that has been used, to see if the Elixir has been depleted; the roll is a (5+), improving with +1 for each of the following: The gang has an Apprentice Clan Chemys, the fighter is equipped with a Chem-Synth, to a maximum of (3+).
  
  • On a successful roll, the Elixir is returned to the Stash
  • On a failed roll, the Elixir is deleted

Synthesising known Elixirs: The gang can Synthesise elixirs using the designs they have available to them, at a credit cost of half the initial value, rounded up to the nearest 5, if the gang has an apprentice clan Chemyst, the cost is reduced to a quarter, rounded up to the nearest 5.


- What do you guys think?

 

[gaffydk]

another version could be:

• The Chem-Alchemy Lab:
  • An Escher gang start the game with a small Chem-Alchemy Lab, which gives the following benefits:
    • In the Pre-battle sequence, the gang can create Chem-Alchemy Elixirs, to take into battle, with these restrictions:
      • 2 Elixirs, with a maximum individual cost of 10 can be created.
  • Upgrading the Chem-alchemy lab
    • By spending resources, the gang can upgrade their Chem-alchemy lab, to prove the gang with more and better Elixirs (the medium upgrade is a prerequisite for the large upgrade):
      • Medium Chem-Alchemy Lab: 10 components + 50 credits
      • Large Chem-Alchemy Lab: 20 components + 75 credits
        
    • Medium Chem-Alchemy lab provides the following benefit:
      • 3 Elixirs, with a maximum individual cost of 25 can be created.
        
    • Large Chem-Alchemy lab provides the following benefit:
      • 4 Elixirs, with a maximum cost of 45 can be created.

Experimental Elixirs: If the gang has a Apprentice Clan Chemyst, the Chemyst can synthesise one Elixir in the Pre-Battle sequence. They can create an Elixir within a budget of (2D6x5 + Lab limit) Credits. This does not count against the Chem-Lab Elixir limit. (This replaces the Apprentice Clan Chemyst rule with the same name)

The idea here is to make Chem-Alchemy (in a very limited version) avaliable from the start - and remove the constant upkeep with having to buy chems again and again. At the same time it limits the maximum number of elixirs that can be taken into battle at one (Maximum of 5) - and only one exceeding a value of 45 credits.

It makes the clan-Chemyst attactive if you want to get the best drugs, but not mandatory to get some use out of the chem-Alchemy system.

Components are a campaign specific resource - With inspiration from Goonhammers Lost Zone, feedback very much appriciated

 

[Stompzilla]

You guys sure love unnecessary complexity.

 

[MrAndersson]

You guys sure love unnecessary complexity.

I was thinking the exact same thing.

 

[Funghork]

Running my first campaign as Escher, using chems and toxin ammo just seems to be bloating my gang rating with how much they cost.
I see what a Goliath can permanently do with gene smithing and a one per battle stimm-slug stash and am left wondering why I pay more for a single use item. :x

we've changed the poison and gas ammo to count as a profile on the weapon, so you can choose when to activate it before attacking and I have the chems following the free action stimm-slug stash. But it still seems like I'm just dumping credits into something that I should've just used to buy more fighters.

Having said that, Stimm-Slug Stash has a withdrawal effect and Night Night seems to be worth the 10-15 creds (with clan chymist) every time and would be way undercosted as a (semi)-permanent item.

 

[FunGals]

@Funghork I have had similar concerns regarding Escher having to constantly pay to have access to their unique ability. It is a huge credit sink.
Genesmithing is a perfect example of how wonky it is that the gang that makes chems has to buy and rebuy them every time.
I feel like Queens and Champions should be able to "learn a formula" and be able to add a chem effect to a weapon at the start of a game.
Having a Chymist should work in a similar way, if you have to keep buying chems they arent a chemist, theyre a pharmacist!

 

[TopsyKretts]

How about reverse translating some of the balance suggestions for goliath genesmithing? You can have the chems permanently, but max 1 of each combo?

 

[mateyboy3000]

How about reverse translating some of the balance suggestions for goliath genesmithing? You can have the chems permanently, but max 1 of each combo?

The issue here is that utterly breaks some things. Take night night, that's 25 credits for permanent immunity to all lasting injuries and there are enough stimms that you can create a new combination for each fighter if you have enough money

 

[FunGals]

@mateyboy3000 Giving permanent access to chems would require a reworking of the whole system.
The existing trading post system could still exist, allowing purchasing of stimms etc as required.
There would also need to be a separate method/pricing structure to allow for "learning formulas"

Maybe a gang member needs to buy the same chem a certain number of times to study the formula, or spend XP to represent their familiarity with chems.
Or it could be something only the Chymist can do - if you use a chem in a game, in the postgame actions your Chymist can roll a test to see if they now understand it well enough to give a permanent dose to a gang member/weapon.
These are all just top of my head spitball ideas so they aren't fleshed out and probably come with their own problems!

 

[Oojamaflip13]

I hope that, what with the unsubtle hint that Goliath models will be able to carry more weapons than other gang models in the upcoming Necromunda update, Escher (who are the other gang receiving updated rules in that book) will have some updated chem rules.

 

[Funghork]

Looking forward to seeing what's in the book. I'm planning on doing a fan supplement that rebalances some of the House Skills to use in a campaign system - if they don't fix it I'll make sure to post it here when it's done.

 

[MusingWarboss]

I guess they were going with the idea that if someone is genetically modified then it’s a permanent addition to them (hence why it’s only available on purchase of the fighter).

Whereas a shot of chems or tablet etc is a one-off thing and once it’s gone you’re gonna have to go to the shops again.

It’s pretty logical actually.

What I think needs adjusting is the price. That’s the killer on the chems.
Ok you get one or two which are reasonable for what they do but the majority seems an expensive bloat.

THAT appears to be the thing they overlooked - or perhaps they just expect you to chem up for special occasions only.

Or they just hate Escher. Which may be plausible if you look back to the first page of this thread and find my initial post outlining how they seem to get shafted both in-game and out.

 

[TopsyKretts]

I hope that, what with the unsubtle hint that Goliath models will be able to carry more weapons than other gang models in the upcoming Necromunda update, Escher (who are the other gang receiving updated rules in that book) will have some updated chem rules.

Depends, if they get a new model that breaks the rules in some way, they'll add an exception to that rule for Escher instead But otherwise, I wouldn't expect anything other than more of what we got already. Already have 30 genesmithing. Here are 10 more. Already got 30 elixirs, here are 10 more. Already got 113 scenarios, here's one more That sort of thing.