N18 "Fixing" House of Blades

[JawRippa]

Just make alchemy products multiple use. Stimm-slugs are infinite, why shouldn't escher stimms be the same? While Stimms-slugs can overdose you, escher stimms require an action to use, which is a fair trade off.

If something is too powerful from becomming infinite, such as Night-Night, add an exception for that chem/toxin that include that particular effects, they remain one time use due to exceptionally powerful chems having unstable formula which fizzles out quickly after they got synthesized. I guess you could add a motivation to mix it in by giving it an additional use for every non-unstable chem added into the mix (so a chem:night-night+wide eye is removed after 2 games).
Alternatively, Night-night in the mix fizzles out after 1 game, so chem:night-night+wide eye becomes just a wide eye after 1 game.

You don't need to fix House of Blades, just use the Gangs of the Underhive list...

Escher were the worst gang in GoTU due to gangers uniquely having CL8.

 

[MrAndersson]

It's really about fixing the alchemy part of the book. Overall, Escher is in a decent place. Neither over- nor underpowered.

The sad thing is that their thematic stuff, toxin and gas, kind of suck. I assume alchemy was put in place to fix that, but GW missed the mark.

 

[Psyan]

Night-night would be a bit over the top if it were permanent. However, it's easy to fix that: if the fighter goes OOA, the Night-night is expended and needs to be re-purchased. For pretty much everything else, I have no problem with making chems permanent.

 

[Jam Warrior]

I hope that, what with the unsubtle hint that Goliath models will be able to carry more weapons than other gang models in the upcoming Necromunda update, Escher (who are the other gang receiving updated rules in that book) will have some updated chem rules.

The Goliath ‘carry more weapons’ update was hinted at being in Apocrypha Necromunda, the WarCom downloadable pdf article series. Not the upcoming Cinderak book.

 

[Oojamaflip13]

The Goliath ‘carry more weapons’ update was hinted at being in Apocrypha Necromunda, the WarCom downloadable pdf article series. Not the upcoming Cinderak book.

True, I did mistakenly combine the two releases in my mind. But I've just checked and the article for the Cinderak book does say it contains "extended rules for Escher and Goliath gang, including unique vehicles..." so I'm still hoping

 

[MrAndersson]

Night-night would be a bit over the top if it were permanent. However, it's easy to fix that: if the fighter goes OOA, the Night-night is expended and needs to be re-purchased. For pretty much everything else, I have no problem with making chems permanent.

I'd say there are a few others that would need to be re-purchaseable as well. Blood rush, for example, would be too good if you could use it every game for free.

 

[JawRippa]

I'd say there are a few others that would need to be re-purchaseable as well. Blood rush, for example, would be too good if you could use it every game for free.

Its not for free, the cost is taken into account into your gang rating. Cawdor faith acts are for free.
Also it takes an action to use, one more action to stand up - fighter does not do anything this round as a result.

 

[MrAndersson]

Its not for free, the cost is taken into account into your gang rating. Cawdor faith acts are for free.
Also it takes an action to use, one more action to stand up - fighter does not do anything this round as a result.

Automatic recovery from SI is still too good.

There a a few Cawdor faiths that are problematic too, but that is not what this thread is about.

 

[MusingWarboss]

I'd say there are a few others that would need to be re-purchaseable as well. Blood rush, for example, would be too good if you could use it every game for free.

So some of these you want free on the NHS (Necromunda Health Service) and some you have to go to Jackboots the Chemyst and buy.

(Localised UK in jokes here)

 

[JawRippa]

Automatic recovery from SI is still too good.

There a a few Cawdor faiths that are problematic too, but that is not what this thread is about.

I honestly don't see the problem, you are paying creds for the fighter to be more self-sufficient. Its not like it prevents a flesh wound or can be used multiple times per fight by the same fighter. If it allowed an injured fighter to stand+shoot, then yeah, I'd call it a powerful effect.
If it is too powerful, change it to rolling 1 more injury dice while recovering and picking the one that you want.

 

[Bracer]

No games so far (Till Fri) but I honestly can't see it throwing up any problems and, to my mind, is the easiest solution to keep track of, in Yaktribes. You just don't remove chems at the end of every game (Unless the limited check is failed) and if you take any Wyld Runners you add the Chosen weapon rather than buy it and adjust their cost down by 10.

Im gonna weigh in on this issue. Ive read the previous comments.

Specifically on the subject of simple book keeping.

1.) Chyms/Stimms/Gas/Tox, are all bought single use.
However as we all know paying through the nose for your gangs one and only special ability, isnt competitive when other gangs get it for free (looking at Van Saar and Goliath). However it is quickly apparent that such chyms are very powerful, such as night-night. So clearly a points increase is needed. So this brings me to:
2.) Chym synth grants the bearer an ability to manufacture a chem they have added to their gear list (per fighter, rather than per gang)
This means you will have a +15c tax on top of chyms like night-night and i think that is enough to balance the game. However in order to generate the chym you have to pass the usual chym-synth intelligence check in a post battle sequence.
However such permanent chyms could lead to an unstoppable snowballing as you add more and more chyms... this strikes me as a good way to lose friends. So instead i echo the other comment on here:
3.) You can only make a mix of 3 chyms maximum per respective category; Stimms/Gas/Tox
This is thematic because its a little hard to believe that more than 3 completely different chyms can make good bedfellows in the same combination/elixirs.

However, there is the point that it seems as though the HoB writers want you to take an apprentice clan-chymist, to act as a permenant decrease in cost locked behind a 75c paywall. This would be a nice strategy if the chymist, after having created all the chyms you need would switch to earning you extra credits, but that isnt really what happens... however they do have the fixer skill aswell... its starting to seem like maybe starting the game with a clan chymist is the easiest book keeping fix, and then buying a second clan chymist at a later stage might also be the way to play...

 

[Jam Warrior]

Spitballing here, but how about Escher can buy a single Chymist at gang creation who doesn’t count against the hanger on limit. And then replace the fixer skill with a variable or set amount of creds that can only be spent on chems before each battle. I’m away from books so can’t consider numbers.

That way you get to play with chems from the start for a small investment. They constantly regenerate so you don’t have to keep paying for them. You can top up with proper creds if you’re feeling flush and invest in more Chymists if you have the hanger on slots down the line.

 

[Bracer]

You know what really grinds my gears?

The fact that Escher is -The- poison weapons gang and lets take a look at the poison weapons we have
Ranged: 2 but they are all scarce (i think someone once said every 1 in 7 games they will only shoot once)
Melee: 3 but they are all melee and you are mostly T3
Grenades: 2 but they are all genade and require an auto ammo check.
Then there is the Chym-Thrower: Which doesnt automatically run out of ammo all the time, but is severely overcosted.

Whatever niche the games designers had in mind for escher, it seems to have been poorly executed (which is what my girls would like to do to them tehe).

I mean, where is my weird and wonderful weapons!? Where is my Tox-shells for a shotgun or sawnoff? Where is my Combination shocking and tox sword!? Why is there no tox ammo for things like a long rifle!? Compare this to the custom weapons that other gangs get and i start to feel a little harddoneby.

But generally when GW tries to gimp something so hard it can only mean one thing, and that thing is:
"when we play tested tox guns were extremely overpowered"

Which means you should lean into them as much as you can! ...if you care about winning... So what is the problem with buying maybe two Needle Rifles for you leader? They only cost 35x2... Or even two scare gas grenades. Its pricey at 45x2, but then you know your doing something right, combo it with expansive bought off your Clan Chymist and we actually might be getting somewhere!

 

[Stompzilla]

You could just add a 0-3 limit on Clan Chemists and count them as a single hangar on slot - so more of a guild which takes up a single slot, rather than individuals. It's pretty easy to visualise 1- 3 chemists (Or whatever, the limit you decide on is) working out of the same " lab".

In practice, my Escher fixed did work out well for the remainder of that campaign BUT the Escher player is a bit of a scatter brain and I, as Arbiter, did have to keep reminding them of the house rules, so something a bit easier to keep track of that works with the wording in the book would be ideal.

 

[Bracer]

Spitballing here, but how about Escher can buy a single Chymist at gang creation who doesn’t count against the hanger on limit. And then replace the fixer skill with a variable or set amount of creds that can only be spent on chems before each battle. I’m away from books so can’t consider numbers.

That way you get to play with chems from the start for a small investment. They constantly regenerate so you don’t have to keep paying for them. You can top up with proper creds if you’re feeling flush and invest in more Chymists if you have the hanger on slots down the line.

Since fixer is a prost-battle ability im not too worried about having an unfair advantage in the first game.

In comparison, i think Orlocks can take a Fixer on one of their characters in the first game and still have access to all of their special rules like legendary names.

I honestly think that the fixer chymist is there not just to lower the price of chyms but to give you money to buy them, however the rules writers seem to also want to augment your ability to buy things other than chyms. I'll take it!

Tbh i dont see why clan chymist is more like a skill that you can give to your champs/leader a bit like fixer. However im more happy with just starting with one clan chymist at the start... and buying more later.

 

[Stompzilla]

I think there's a plan forming.

Make the Clan Chemist a clan chemist coven with a limit of 0-3 that only takes up a single hangar on slot, keep everything else the same.

We allow hangars on from the start anyway, so that's no big change.

I'll give it a try in my group.

 

[Jam Warrior]

Putting the fix in the Chymist and keeping the main chem rules otherwise untouched is definitely an advantage in rules simplicity.

I’d still say ditch the Fixer skill and their chem discount and just give them the ability to spend X on chems before each battle. Keeps it real simple and focussed on the fix we’re trying to make.

 

[MusingWarboss]

isnt competitive when other gangs get it for free (looking at Van Saar and Goliath).

Can’t speak for VS not having their book but Goliaths do have to pay for their genesmithing abilities. Perhaps even deduct cost from some fighters if you choose an option which reduces one of their abilities.

The big difference is these effects are persistent until the fighter dies.

But generally when GW tries to gimp something so hard it can only mean one thing, and that thing is:
"when we play tested tox guns were extremely overpowered"

Not really, they “gimped” toxin already, in N17 it was far more potent and until Delaque came out stiletto knives were an Escher only thing. So for whatever reason they stripped some of Eschers unique weapons away.

Again I’ll point out Andy Hoare, head of SG, plays Escher and his gang is supposed to be the most powerful in the studios campaigns.

I still think they’re gimping him here and others just have to suffer. There seems to be no reason why in game or out that Escher get the rough end of the stick so often, other than a conscious decision by the SG department to do that.

 

[Bracer]

Hoare...

plays Escher...

Giggity.

Yes it could be that they are trying to nerf him especially. But yeah, making Escher the only known gang that has expendable unique gang rules sure does seem unreasonable.

Hey? Wanna see something cool?

Toxin... now can combine with Exploding toxin?? lel

 

[Funghork]

I was thinking of making them Limited with an ammo check, altering the ammo check depending on how stable they are or how many ingredients they have.
Like the idea of having multiple Chymists, maybe require 2+ to get more stable Elixirs.