N18 "Fixing" House of Blades

Based on your discussion, some of these fine ideas are scheduled to be included in the next update for my house rules compilation:

EXTENDED WARRANTY
Allows chems that were equipped and used during a battle to remain afterwards and be available for future battles:
  • Ammo (Gaseous & Toxic): Treated as Limited. This trait cannot be ignored, however if the weapon can't go Out of Ammo (for whatever reason), apply the Extended Warranty of Stimms instead.
  • Stimm (Wargear): If not used, it remains (this only applies if the chem's effect didn't trigger).
If not lost, the chem can be returned to the stash after the battle and be transferred to other fighters between battles.

OVERUSE
After each battle, if more than 1 fighter that took part share at least 1 chem with identical effect, roll 2+ for each one or it is lost.

Example:
  • The gang starts the battle with the following chems:
    • Fighter A: Brain Lock
      (not triggered during the battle).
    • Fighter B: Brain Lock + Dreamland
      (one of these triggered during the battle).
    • Fighter C: Dreamland + Hyper
      (none of these triggered during the battle).
    • Fighter D: Acidic
      (not triggered during the battle).
  • After the battle:
    • Fighter A: Roll 2+ or lose the chem (because at least one other fighter has a chem including Brain Lock).
    • Fighter B: The chem is lost because at least one of the effects were used.
    • Fighter C: Roll 2+ or lose the entire chem
      (because at least one other fighter has a chem including Brain Lock).
    • Fighter D: Keep the chem for a future battle because it wasn't used.
The goal was to keep it as simple as possible, but it got a bit complex so added an example that might clarify any shortcomings of my attempt to explain it. Hopefully this doesn't break badly.

The motivation is of course to give some longevity to chems and possibly reduce spam.
 
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The issue here is that utterly breaks some things. Take night night, that's 25 credits for permanent immunity to all lasting injuries and there are enough stimms that you can create a new combination for each fighter if you have enough money

So?

No really, the escher gang gets to not have their important models shit on in the aftermath of a game. Oh no.
It's really about fixing the alchemy part of the book. Overall, Escher is in a decent place. Neither over- nor underpowered.

The sad thing is that their thematic stuff, toxin and gas, kind of suck. I assume alchemy was put in place to fix that, but GW missed the mark.

Escher models are all paying for flak armor they forgot they deleted from the models except for the death maiden. This is what compounds the chem alchemy thing. Escher already paying more then anyone else for their stuff.

The only thing escher 'get' is a 5 credit lasgun, that makes them cost as much as every other ganger.

Night-night would be a bit over the top if it were permanent. However, it's easy to fix that: if the fighter goes OOA, the Night-night is expended and needs to be re-purchased. For pretty much everything else, I have no problem with making chems permanent.

Night night is indeed used whether you go OoA or not.

I do think a thing people are missing about night night is that it makes the capture roll easier. But I've played a few campaigns where capturing hasn't even been a thing.

It's strong, but it's not "My entire gang is toughness 5" strong
 
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Escher models are all paying for flak armor they forgot they deleted from the models except for the death maiden. This is what compounds the chem alchemy thing. Escher already paying more then anyone else for their stuff.
I might be mistaken, but Escher gangers got better Cool stat compared to GoTU. Cawdor's fighter is 45 creds, but -1 Initiative, so somewhat fair to have a +5 cost increase (if initiative was actually useful).
But then you compare the cost to Delaque ganger at 40 creds with +1CL and you are left scratching your head.
 
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Night night is indeed used whether you go OoA or not.

I do think a thing people are missing about night night is that it makes the capture roll easier. But I've played a few campaigns where capturing hasn't even been a thing.

It's strong, but it's not "My entire gang is toughness 5" strong
I think you've missed the subject here, no-one is saying night night is OP as it stands. People are proposing that it becomes a one time bought item. So if you could pay 25 creds to never have to roll serious injury on a fighter, say your leader, a couple of death maidens and your heavy weapon carrying champ, thats 100 creds for them to be immortal. That is what is being discussed and (quite rightly imo) is being considered op.

The RAW gw rules are yes, it is used up whether you have to use it or not each game and has to be rebought. It is then a 100 creds drain on your finance every game (in the above example), which is super weak because of the down side.
 
I think you've missed the subject here, no-one is saying night night is OP as it stands. People are proposing that it becomes a one time bought item. So if you could pay 25 creds to never have to roll serious injury on a fighter, say your leader, a couple of death maidens and your heavy weapon carrying champ, thats 100 creds for them to be immortal. That is what is being discussed and (quite rightly imo) is being considered op.

The RAW gw rules are yes, it is used up whether you have to use it or not each game and has to be rebought. It is then a 100 creds drain on your finance every game (in the above example), which is super weak because of the down side.

That's not, actually, that OP. It's not something that helps you win games, it's something that prevents you from being put in the dumpster by a bad roll.

And considering that Escher is the weakest House gang, having that might even raise their spot to.... second weakest, or middle of the pack.
 
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That's not, actually, that OP. It's not something that helps you win games, it's something that prevents you from being put in the dumpster by a bad roll.

And considering that Escher is the weakest House gang, having that might even raise their spot to.... second weakest, or middle of the pack.
Its more of a problem of Campaign effects vs Skirmish buffs. You could have a thing that is useless for actual fight (in case of night-night it is detrimental because of cost gang rating increase), but crazy for an ongoing campaign.
 
It's not something that helps you win games
Hard disagree here. If I have immunity from consequence, I will push a lot harder with my gang, I will make the other side bleed for every inch, even when under normal circumstances I would bottle to preserve my gang. That will help win games.

Escher is the weakest House gang
I honestly dont know if this is right. I would say they are comparable to delaque, orlock and non-doom magic leaning cawdor. Honestly if you dont abuse the cawdor magic, they are likely the weakest gang (obvs if you lean into it then they become top tier).

Reaslistically goliath and van saar are A grade, everyone else is B grade, with delaque and cawdor having tricks that if you build your gang around abusing, move themselves into A grade. But there isnt a huge amount between them personally.
 
That's not, actually, that OP. It's not something that helps you win games, it's something that prevents you from being put in the dumpster by a bad roll.

And considering that Escher is the weakest House gang, having that might even raise their spot to.... second weakest, or middle of the pack.
It breaks the whole purpose of a campaign, completely shutting down the tear.
 
Having recently won an entire Dominion Campaign more or less on the strength of Stinger Mound Sprawl preventing me from losing any champs or leader to death or disabling injuries, I feel pretty confident in saying that permanent Night-Night would be strong as hell.
 
Stinger Mould is even stronger, as you can just use it when you roll instead of a pre-emptive measure.
 
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Its always interesting to hear differing opinions, In our group Escher absolutely wiped the floor with the other gangs. So much so i was interested in reading how anyone could consider them the weakest gang!
 
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Rise from the grave thread, rise!

I was thinking regarding stimms and combat drugs and their use in necromunda in general, not just chem-alchemy.
There are a lot of problems with one-time use items and drugs:
  1. First is an obvious one, those credits could have been spent on a permament improvements for your gang. A lot of drugs are simply too expensive for what they do.
  2. The advantage you get is mitigated by bloated rating and fighter's costs, which means that opponent gets to compensate for you bringing chems by getting tactical cards or free fighters. Its even worse if you choose to save credits and decided on not taking drugs, because opponent got the benefit for free and you didn't.
  3. Taking stimms mid-battle requires wasting an action, which most of the time you cannot afford to do. This means that it's barely beneficial to play concervatively and wait to see if its worth using drugs to begin with instead of using them before the battle and hoping for the best.
  4. It can be awkward moving chems from stash to fighters or vice versa - you could even consider it cheesy if you know in advance who is your opponent and take an appropriate chems.
If you try fixing drugs by making them pernament, it won't feel right. Combat Drugs are supposed to be a huge boost in the moment, otherwise they become a permament special rule - and those are called skills. So I think we have to stick to drugs being a powerful thing which helps winning a key game. Solutions are:
  1. Drugs are assigned to fighters (no more than one dose per fighter - to keep the bookkeeping simple) and no longer increase gang rating or fighter's cost. You cannot juggle drugs between fighters similar to weapons.
  2. To fine-tune the weird 5cr. pricing step, you get multiple drug dosages with a single purchase. Depending on the power of the drug, you could get 3, 2 or 1 dose with a single purchase.
  3. Drugs can either be used at the start of the battle or at the start of fighter's activation as a free action, should you pass an intellect test. If you don't pass, taking drug will require a simple action. Chem-synths make you pass the test automatically.
  4. Escher's hanger-on could partially mitigate the downside of burning creds for a temporary boosts - by reducing the expenses by 25% (but you always spend at least 5 cr. when cooking something). It should never be able to fully mitigate it though.
 
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Temporary vs permanent improvements is a huge issue I have with chems - a possible solve being a Clan Chymist in the gang allows you to buy the formula for chems, this can then be programmed into a fighters chemsynth to produce one free dose per battle of that recipe.
 
What about not reducing cost to zero but randomising the effectiveness to rebalance chems?
Eg: does what it says the label on a 2-5 roll, nothing on a 1 and a bonus effect on a 6.
 
What about not reducing cost to zero but randomising the effectiveness to rebalance chems?
Eg: does what it says the label on a 2-5 roll, nothing on a 1 and a bonus effect on a 6.
New options after receiving some feedback.

Add +1 to the rolls below if you are an Escher Gang in good standing (ie: not an Outcast Gang, Chaos corrupted, etc). [Not sure if Ash Waste Eschers should be considered for the exclusion list]
Add +1 to the roll sif you have an Apprentice Clan Chymist in your Gang roster.
[Note: those are cumulative, so Escher gangs with a Chymist in tow would be running with +2 to their rolls and never see a 1 or 2 result].

Option when taking a stimm, roll a D6:
Result of 1: Congratulations, fighter just drank bleached hive discharge. No effect, other than the fighter immediately suffering a Strength 3, 1 damage hit, and dose used (delete from fighter card).
Result of 2-3: Drank hive discharge filtered through a few slices of corpse starch. No effect other than unpleasant after-taste, dose used (strike that chem from the fighter's card).
Result of 4-5: Fighter got what they paid for - nothing more, nothing less. Normal effect, dose used.
Result of 6+: Concentrated batch, or all the active solution was at the top of the vial. Normal effect, dose not used (chem dose can be used in the next battle).

Option when using toxic ammo. Roll a D6 alongside the to-hit dice (and ammo dice if applicable):
Result of 1: ..."that shouldn't have made a sound"...If a firearm the weapon is considered to have failed an ammo check and is jammed, ammo depleted (strike from fighter card). If a stilleto knife or sword the weapon loses the Toxin trait for the rest of the battle, normal rolls to wound occur on this attack and for further attacks with this weapon. If shooting to-hit roll successful the target is pinned as normal, but no roll to wound required as the dart itself warps mid-air into a soft tangle of polymer that taps the target harmlessly. The weapon's attack is not considered to have occurred with the Silent trait if it usually has it.
Result of 2-3: . Recycled exotic toxic ammo packaging, normal toxic ammo. ammo depleted (strike from fighter card). Normal toxin effects.
Result of 4-5: Fighter got what they paid for - nothing more, nothing less. Normal effect of the toxic ammo.
Result of 6+: Officio Assassinorum grade. Normal effect, reroll any failed ammo check made with this weapon this round.
If the toxic Ammo use does not generate a result lower than 4 over the course of the current scenario the toxic anmo can be used in the next scenario.

Option using gaseous ammo, d6 alongside the to hit and/or ammo die (where applicable):
Result of 1: ..."what tha smell?"...Cannister breach. Weapon is considered to have failed an ammo check and is jammed/depleted (strike the ammo or grenade from fighter card). The weapon does not generate a template if fired nor does it generate a blast template if a grenade - it has instead leaked into the air of the attacking fighter, who must make saves as if the target of the original attack.
Result of 2-3: . Reagents added to the gas mix were inert, special ammo considered depleted (strike from fighter card). Normal effects of gas attack (basic toxin if chemthrower, choke if grenade).
Result of 4-5: Fighter got what they paid for - nothing more, nothing less. Normal effect.
Result of 6+: The good stuff. Normal effect, reroll any failed ammo check made with this weapon this round.
If the gaseous ammo use does not generate a result lower than 5 over the course of the current scenario the anmo can be used in the next scenario.

Under these options Escher gangs would get longer lasting and cheaper chems, with added benefit if they have a Chymist in the crew.
It'd allow for non-Escher gangs to use chems, just not as cheaply or effectively.

Stimms are a little less boosted by these options (50% durability for Chymist gangs), but guaranteed permanent NightNight is an abomination to contemplate. Toxic ammo is a little more durable than the other chem options intentionally to reflect that it's easier to quality control than gas (and the weapons it affects aren't template or blast or particularly scary with their 1 damage).
No suggestion here to nerf Maiming, even with it Escher are one of the gangs least likely to deal stacks of critical injuries with their mostly one damage weapons.