N18 Free armor and costs associated *spawn

GraaEminense

Four-armed Emperor
Jan 12, 2015
185
143
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Bergen, Norway
Removing a fighter's starting armour is now an option (yay!) but it still doesn't reduce their cost as it should. A ganger putting on mesh (15c) and sending their starting flak (10c) to the stash should only increase their value by +5c.
 
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GraaEminense

Four-armed Emperor
Jan 12, 2015
185
143
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Bergen, Norway
Has it been confirmed that that's the way it works?
I have trouble seeing any other way it could work. Armour is given a price, reflecting how valuable it is. When a ganger exchanges one for another its value shouldn't be the sum of the two. Otherwise Orlocks get quite a discount:
Orlock with mesh armour, 55c
Cawdor with mesh armour, 60c (-1 LD).
Escher with mesh armour, 65c (+1 I, -1 LD, -1 Cl)
 
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WeRT!

Ganger
Apr 20, 2018
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157
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Poland
idiotoodporny.blogspot.com
I've not seen any mention in the rules of a fighter's cost going down when they discard equipment (starting equipment or otherwise).
Correct.
Also - you pay full price for Mesh Armor if you already have Flak Armor.
You don't sell your old pants and get discount for new one.
It's not how it works.

ps. It reminds me people try to sell free daggers in old Necromunda...
 
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GraaEminense

Four-armed Emperor
Jan 12, 2015
185
143
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Bergen, Norway
So, if wargear is swappable... If I buy a ganger frags for 30c, then give them to someone else... They both have their cost increased by 30?

A fighter's value is essentially his points cost. It seems obvious that it shouldn't be increased by stuff they don't have or use.
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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Also - you pay full price for Mesh Armor if you already have Flak Armor.
You don't sell your old pants and get discount for new one.
When a fighter gets any new Wargear, they can put whatever current Wargear they have in the gang stash (including at gang creation). Wargear stashed this way can either be given to another fighter or sold when the gang visits the trading post for (max(value - 1D6, 5)) credits.

So yeah, actually, you can sell your Flak armour (for 5 credits) after purchasing a Mesh armour (for 15 credits).

However, it has nothing to do with gang rating. Assuming the RAW are strictly observed a gang with a Champion with Mesh armour and a Juve with Flak armour would have a Gang rating 10 credits higher than a gang with a Champion with Flak armour and a Juve with Mesh armour.
This is obviously not what is intended.

As a side note, observing the rules as written also means your gang rating permanently goes up by 30 credits whenever your run out of Firestrom ammo for your combat shotgun (until the fighter with said combat shotgun is killed or fired of course.)
 
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WeRT!

Ganger
Apr 20, 2018
85
157
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Poland
idiotoodporny.blogspot.com
So yeah, actually, you can sell your Flak armour (for 5 credits) after purchasing a Mesh armour (for 15 credits).
I said you can't (or you shouldn't be able) to sell your Flak Armor (start item), gets x credits and then buy for another 5 Mesh Armor before you play ANY games. After first game, sure.

At least this is my interpretation behind this case:
"Removing a fighter's starting armour is now an option (yay!) but it still doesn't reduce their cost as it should. A ganger putting on mesh (15c) and sending their starting flak (10c) to the stash should only increase their value by +5c."
 
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Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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At least this is my interpretation behind this case:
"Removing a fighter's starting armour is now an option (yay!) but it still doesn't reduce their cost as it should. A ganger putting on mesh (15c) and sending their starting flak (10c) to the stash should only increase their value by +5c."
He's talking about the fighter's value (their contribution to gang rating), not how much it costs to purchase the mesh armour.
Your are correct that you can't sell the Flak armour at gang creation (but you can give it to a Juve)

For instance, an Escher champion with Flak armour costs 95 credits and adds 95 credits to your gang rating, and an Escher champion with Mesh armour (and one Flak armour in your gang stash) costs 110 credits but should only add 100 credits to your gang rating.
 

GraaEminense

Four-armed Emperor
Jan 12, 2015
185
143
73
Bergen, Norway
Just got a reply from the Necromunda FAQ. It seems pretty clear, even if I think it's stupid.
NecroFAQ email said:
Morning,

The armour fighters have when they are recruited is built into their cost. If they get different armour for them later on, their cost increases accordingly. If you put the discarded armour in the Stash and give it to another, their cast increases by the cost of that armour.
You do not get to decrease the cost of a fighter by removing something included for free when that fighter is recruited.

Limited equipment is different. Add the cost so long as the fighter has it. Deduct the cost once it is gone.

Hope that helps.
 

Trafalgar Law

Gang Hero
Mar 14, 2017
687
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Chorley, Lancashire, UK
So the armour is built into the cost of the ganger (which is quite obvious) but is also free. What an idiot, did he not even bother to read his own post and see the contradiction?

I'm just going to ignore such a stupid ruling as it gives gangs with worse armour a disadvantage as those gangs will be artifically bloated.
 

TopsyKretts

Gang Hero
Dec 29, 2017
1,947
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Kristiansand
This is one of those problems that has spawned countless discussions since the very beginning (November 2017). It seems they are unable or unwilling to resolve it in a satisfying manner. For the countless discussions to come, we can now say 2 things:

1) Official answer is no, you don't reduce cost
2) <Insert house rule> to solve it
 

Malo

YakTribe Mechanicum
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Feb 17, 2011
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There's stupid then there's that reply.
It's free but if you give it to a juve you have to pay for it even though it's in the cost already
What do you mean pay for it? If you're giving discarded Flak to a Juve that didn't have armor, their cost is increased by 10 but you're not paying any credits.
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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You 'pay' not in credit, but by having your gang rating bloated for no good reason.

Sooo... according to them, if you buy a Mesh for your leader and give the Flak to a Juve, your gang rating goes up by 25 credits.
Then, when you later upgrade your leader to a Carapace — Light, give the Mesh to a Champion and give the left over Flak to another juve, your gang rating goes up by 105 credits.
And then you get a Carapace — Heavy for your leader, give the Carapace — Light to the Champion, give the leftover Mesh to the first Juve (since they got some nice advancements) and give the leftover Flak to a new Juve, and your gang rating goes up by 205 credits.

You bought 3 items for 195 credits total, and your gang rating is 335 credits higher than it was. Brillant! :rolleyes:
 

Vonvilkee

Gang Hero
Jan 7, 2018
610
431
78
Bellingham, Washington USA
Doing it this way makes giving out armor a choice. Many have commented on how cheap armor is, while it is cheap in creds this makes it more of a choice for gang rating.

It is actually how I understood it from day one. It makes upgrading to mesh a real choice not just a no brainer.