N18 Gang rating and hangers on...

Mesuno

Juve
Aug 5, 2019
16
0
1
My campaign are having a discussion about how to account for hangers on in gang rating calculations.

Example: hive scum cost 30 to hire for a single battle. They come with 60 cred of gear chosen from the trading post. The rules say they contribute to gang rating “in the normal way”. The only explanation for gang rating calculations I can find simply says it is the value of the unit plus the cost of their equipment.

So does a hive scum (hired for one battle for 30 cred) contribute 90 or 30 to gang rating?

Similarly, one of our players has a free rogue doc and a free ammo jack. They each come with weapons and would not normally be sucked into combat. But if they are, how do they contribute to gang rating? Are they zero? Or listed hire cost? Or hire cost plus value of their items?
 

TopsyKretts

Gang Hero
Dec 29, 2017
1,947
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Kristiansand
Ideally this rating should be what you bring to the table. If you have a hive scum plus gear on the table, you include that in the calculation. It's a little bit more difficult for the hangers-on. If they can escape the battle, they have little effect. The rogue doc has no effect until after the battle. The ammo jack does have an effect even if not in the battle. To keep it simple, they all have to be included or not (unless as part of the crew). Not sure which is better.
 
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Mesuno

Juve
Aug 5, 2019
16
0
1
We have been calculating crew ratings each battle, rather than total gang ratings, to work out tactics cards. This seems to be the main point of gang rating at the moment in the game. So it really only matters if the doc/ammo-jack get sucked into combat.

One of our players has a few free hangers on from territories. He is arguing that as he didn't pay to hire him he doesn't affect gang rating.
 

el_guestos

Ganger
Aug 2, 2018
186
97
28
Leeds, England, UK
Personally I find that a bit gamey, for me crew rating is designed to reflect the power of the gang as it stands on the table, it (in my mind) has nothing to do with whether you paid for that fighter or not, otherwise free Juves and gangers from settlements would not count either, neither would free wargear given by territories, which more than anything else would lead to a situation where it's nigh on impossible to track crew rating and certainly impossible for your opponant to know if you are telling the truth about all this free equipment and gang members you turn up to the table with.

I wouldn't mind Hired Guns having less of an effect on Crew rating than their actual cost (to give people an incentive to actually use them) but it should be the same for everyone so it is transparent and at least everyone has the option to use them at that price.
 

Mesuno

Juve
Aug 5, 2019
16
0
1
One territory provides 3 free sets of choke gas grenades in the pre-battle sequence, worth 150 credits of gang rating. The territory boons clearly apply before tactics cards are calculated.

Either those choke grenades are worth 150 in the gang rating calculation for that battle, or they are worth zero.
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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Issy-les-Moulineaux 92130 France
When calculating gang/crew rating, the game doesn't care what you paid for the stuff. You always check the value of the item in your HWL (or in the Trading post if it's not found in your HWL). The only exception to that is starting equipment, since the writers are unable to make a cohesive ruleset its cost is already included in the fighter's hiring cost.

Hive scums contribute to crew rating for 30 credits + whatever the cost of their equipment is (RAW, if you are Escher and you give them a lasgun (that costs you 15 credits, because it must come from the TP), that lasgun will contribute 5 credits to crew rating, because that's its cost in your HWL)
Hangers-on that are forced into battle contribute to crew rating just like Brutes do (hiring cost only, the cost of their equipment is already included in that cost)
 

Mesuno

Juve
Aug 5, 2019
16
0
1
"Hangers-on that are forced into battle contribute to crew rating just like Brutes do (hiring cost only, the cost of their equipment is already included in that cost) "

When I hired my goliath zerker I explicitly paid for extra weapon options which directly added to his gang rating.

I'm not sure that it is justified to say that for other hangers on their hiring cost includes their equipment. The obvious case in point is the Ammo-Jack. He costs 50 to hire, but comes equipped with combat shotgun which costs 70 to purchase from the trading post. His stats are comparable to a juve, so around 30 creds. If he gets sucked into combat he contributes about 100 cred of firepower to the crew rating.

Hell, an unethical gang could hire ammo jacks and murder them to profit from their equipment!
 

TopsyKretts

Gang Hero
Dec 29, 2017
1,947
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Kristiansand
"Hangers-on that are forced into battle contribute to crew rating just like Brutes do (hiring cost only, the cost of their equipment is already included in that cost) "

When I hired my goliath zerker I explicitly paid for extra weapon options which directly added to his gang rating.

I'm not sure that it is justified to say that for other hangers on their hiring cost includes their equipment. The obvious case in point is the Ammo-Jack. He costs 50 to hire, but comes equipped with combat shotgun which costs 70 to purchase from the trading post. His stats are comparable to a juve, so around 30 creds. If he gets sucked into combat he contributes about 100 cred of firepower to the crew rating.

Hell, an unethical gang could hire ammo jacks and murder them to profit from their equipment!
You don't get to keep any of the hangers-on equipment?!? If an ammo jack was forced to join the battle, I'd add 50 to the gang rating. Regardless of the actual value of the equipment.
 

Mesuno

Juve
Aug 5, 2019
16
0
1
You don't get to keep any of the hangers-on equipment?!? If an ammo jack was forced to join the battle, I'd add 50 to the gang rating. Regardless of the actual value of the equipment.
(Re keeping their equipment, I was being facetious)


Yep - we have had a group discussion and have decided that is how we will play it. The yaktribes software seems to have it setup so that ammo jacks and docs work differently from hive scum/bounty hunters.

You hire a hive scum for 30 cred - he comes with 60 cred of kit. Yaktribes lists his value on the gang card as 90.
You hire a bounty hunter for 80, who comes with a bunch of kit. Yaktribe adds his hire cost to his equipment cost for gang rating.
You hire a brute, and choose a bunch of extra options. Yaktribe adds the base hire cost to the the extra options for gang rating.

You hire a rogue doc for 50. He comes with a laspistol and medicae kit. Yaktribe lists him as a flat 50 creds.
You hire an ammo jack for 50. He comes with 135 cred of gear and skills. Yak tribe rates those items at zero cost and prints his gang card as a straight 50 creds.

It's not consistent, and the rules are incredibly murky about how gang rating should actually be calculated. There is a line about "gang rating is calculated in the usual way", but no clarification about when equipment is, or is not, included.

It gets even worse for dramatis personae. The cost listed in the rules appears to be calculated as base hire cost + skills and equipment. But without reference to what you pay to hire them. As written you hire them for a one off battle at full equipment cost (300+ creds for some bounty hunters) as opposed to 80 for the standard bounty hunters
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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It's not consistent
Actually, it is. In the weird, no-so-consistent way of the writers.

Starting equipment doesn't contribute to gang rating. That's the rule they came up with. I think it's a stupid rule, but it is applied consistently across the board.
When you hire a Ambot, you don't add the cost of its two Tunneling Claws to the gang rating (and how would you? They have no cost listed anywhere). Similarly, you don't add the cost of its starting Harpoon launcher to the Orlock's lugger rating, do you? And you don't deduce it when you replace it with another weapon, right? you just add the cost of the new weapon to the Lugger's rating. So why would you make an exception for the Hangers-on starting equipment?
 

EarthDragon

Ganger
Apr 1, 2013
236
186
43
Elizabeth City, NC, USA
Actually, it is. In the weird, no-so-consistent way of the writers.

Starting equipment doesn't contribute to gang rating. That's the rule they came up with. I think it's a stupid rule, but it is applied consistently across the board.
When you hire a Ambot, you don't add the cost of its two Tunneling Claws to the gang rating (and how would you? They have no cost listed anywhere). Similarly, you don't add the cost of its starting Harpoon launcher to the Orlock's lugger rating, do you? And you don't deduce it when you replace it with another weapon, right? you just add the cost of the new weapon to the Lugger's rating. So why would you make an exception for the Hangers-on starting equipment?
This.

The Hanger-ons don't have upgrade options. They have a "this or that" and that's it. Where as Brutes and Hive Scum have varied costs based on what exactly they are equipped as you are upgrading them at that point.

And it does not matter if you pay for something or not. If your guys now have it and are using it, it counts against their gang rating as per the value of the weapon. This is the same if you OVER pay for something. I'm not adding the "d6x10" extra credits to the Hvy Weapons value. It's base value is it's gang value no matter what it cost to acquire.
 

JawRippa

Ganger
Mar 31, 2017
160
127
58
A small off-topic vent here, but I find it extremely unfair that some territories affect your gang rating (equipment/hanger-on granting ones), while others that give you very powerful abilities which directly affect your gang's effectiveness during battle do not affect gang rating (tunnels, needle ways, toll crossing; and don't even get me started on how broken Archaeotech is).
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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Yeah, there a lot of small issues with how gang rating is calculated. From the top of my head:
  • advancements are generally overvalued
  • lasting injuries do not decrease gang rating (even though they all are negative advancements)
  • starting equipment continue contributing to gang rating even when it's removed from the fighter (or, alternatively, never contributes to gang rating)
  • different skills are valued the same way despite some of them not affecting in-game effectiveness (Savvy Trader for instance) while other do
  • the same skill is valued differently depending on whether it is primary, secondary or tertiary. For some reason, a randomly rolled tertiary skill is considered more valuable than a chosen primary one
  • Some equipment is valued using the discounted cost from the HWL instead of the universal Trading Post cost
  • Some equipment contribute to gang rating despite not affecting in-game effectiveness (Cred sniffer for instance)
  • No territory/racket directly contributes to gang rating despite some of them affecting in-game effectiveness
  • Hangers-on only contribute to gang rating when they are included in the crew despite some of them affecting in-game effectiveness even when they aren't (Ammo-Jack)
  • Hangers-on do not adequately contribute to gang rating when they are included in the crew (given their equipment, the Ammo-jack should contribute way more than they currently do — this also makes them the single best option for inducement when using the eternal campaign rule, by a large margin)
Plus, a few things are unclear (for instance, what is the gang rating contribution of a counterfeit weapon from the Rogue Factoria alliance? Is it worth the same as the normal version, or 20% less?)
 

TopsyKretts

Gang Hero
Dec 29, 2017
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Kristiansand
I've mentioned it before about injuries not decreasing rating. This is more of a "management" decision. Do you want to keep your BS 2+ ganger with Toughness 2? It will be valued as if having healthy toughness, so it's up to each player to decide. This is exactly how it is done in Blood Bowl, and I've never seen this topic discussed there. The difference here is that bionics can repair these injuries, which complicates it. In Blood Bowl, there are no "bionics" that can repair damaged stats.

Even when injured (and not decreasing rating), you will often see them used in Blood Bowl for different reasons:
  • Difficult to replace because of rare (random) advancement which makes it particularly valuable, and even worth keeping over a fresh replacement.
  • Not worth paying money to replace yet, or insufficient money.
It's part of how the game mechanics avoids fighters becoming too good (similar to death). If you could decrease the rating after injuries, several injuries would be favourable. Gain lower rating by decreasing the useless stats (Willpower, Intelligence, Leadership). Or more extreme for the best ranged gangs: decrease WS, A and S.
 
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EarthDragon

Ganger
Apr 1, 2013
236
186
43
Elizabeth City, NC, USA
A small off-topic vent here, but I find it extremely unfair that some territories affect your gang rating (equipment/hanger-on granting ones), while others that give you very powerful abilities which directly affect your gang's effectiveness during battle do not affect gang rating (tunnels, needle ways, toll crossing; and don't even get me started on how broken Archaeotech is).
When I mention “GW didn’t bother fixing some of the most broken things with the system” number one on that list is territories that give you a boost to combat yet don’t impact your gang rating at all. If it helps you in the scenario, it should impact gang value.......period
 
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Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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I've mentioned it before about injuries not decreasing rating. This is more of a "management" decision. Do you want to keep your BS 2+ ganger with Toughness 2? It will be valued as if having healthy toughness, so it's up to each player to decide. This is exactly how it is done in Blood Bowl, and I've never seen this topic discussed there.
That's only because I don't play Blood Bowl :p
Just because people have grown accustomed to problems doesn't mean they are not problems.

If gang rating is supposed to be as accurate a measure of the gang's effectiveness as possible, then obviously two fighters with the same profile should contribute the same to gang rating. It doesn't matter if one of them has both a -1M injury and a +1M advancement. And yeah, sometime you'll get a lucky injury that helps you minmax a fighter (say -1WS on a ranged specialist). I don't really see why it's more of an issue than getting +1XP as the result of the injury roll.

And if gang rating is supposed to measure something else, then what is it used for?
 
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TopsyKretts

Gang Hero
Dec 29, 2017
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Kristiansand
It's only a problem for you because you haven't grown accustomed to it :sneaky:It's more like a feature, and definitly by design. I don't agree that gang rating must be as accurate as possible measure of gang effectiveness in all ways. +1XP is one step towards next advancement, and advancements increase rating.

Rating should measure the effectiveness yes. But it don't have to measure everything, and it doesn't always have to be totally accurate. In my opinion, it should measure most of what it already does: Purchased fighters, advancements, weapons, equipment and most other purchasede or gained improvements. It doesn't have to measure injuries. Blood Bowl has Team Rating instead of Gang Rating, and neither measure injuries. Blood Bowl is, contrary to Necromunda, a highly competitive game where costs, skills and stats for each team is fine tuned. Keep in mind, it is "competitive" in tiers, so some teams are in garbage tier and not really competitive after all. But most teams are!
 
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TopsyKretts

Gang Hero
Dec 29, 2017
1,947
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Kristiansand
It's supposed to measure most/all improvements of your gang. Not measuring injuries has a purpose, and does not automatically make players replace injured fighters.

You can find a very similar discussion here for pc version of Blood Bowl:
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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I thought it has never been discussed before... :p

Gang rating in Necromunda is used to determine the underdog, which in turn is used to balance the game through inducement/tactics cards. If two gangs are identical except one's rating is bloated because of injuries and compensating advancements, then why should they be considered the top dog? If anything, they should be the one to get inducement, since their player was bad enough to get their fighters injured.

As it stands, Neomunda encourages you to fire injured fighters and replace them with identical non-injured fighters as soon as possible. I think it's a complete non-sense, as encouraging you to keep them as long as possible would generally make for a more flavourful narrative.

Gang management should be a matter of credits, not rating.