General Necromunda 2017 Discussion

Jfredona

Ganger
Jul 19, 2011
93
219
38
43
Chicago, Illinois, US
It's quite a shame as the new rules play really well. It's let down though by them also being a disorganised, unedited mess that no one bothered to proof read and the bizarre decision to only start with two gangs.
I am really loving the rules as a whole and in my small group the mistakes and vague rules are easily sorted out...to be honest they should always be easy to sort out as necromunda has never really been a competitive game in the sense you will be playing tournaments. just don't play with unreasonable people. That being said there really is no excuse as most of the things are easily fixed had they taken time to check and test rules
 

Jfredona

Ganger
Jul 19, 2011
93
219
38
43
Chicago, Illinois, US
Those failures are all so well recognised they will surely be sorted out soon enough. It’s the messiness it creates that really annoys me. I already feel like I’d rather get rid of the two books I’ve already bought for this game and not buy anymore until they release a comprehensive edition. Disappointing as I was one of the most relentlessly optimistic commenters on here in the big thread.

Sorry, I said I’d stop ranting about my disappointment in the new books and I promise now I really will. I’m just too disappointed, I couldn’t help having one more little whinge!
Do you really trust them to fix all of them to your satisfaction?
 

Zangief

Juve
Dec 4, 2017
41
32
18
Duisburg, Germany
the prototype of the book is already written. i saw it in their stream, and thats where those teaserpages come from.You could be right about it, because the Orlock miniatures were already teased to that point.
 

Jfredona

Ganger
Jul 19, 2011
93
219
38
43
Chicago, Illinois, US
It is my understanding that Privateer Press ( I don't play any of there games, so Im not sure ) gives you the ability to ask official rules questions online at anytime to get an official ruling...seems like something that GW could easily do if they wanted
 

maxwellrpower

Gang Hero
Honored Tribesman
Apr 25, 2017
1,042
2,909
163
Melbourne, Australia
Do you really trust them to fix all of them to your satisfaction?
I trust that they will do something about the biggest problems that it seems literally everyone on the internet is whining about 24/7, because I think they must realize that not doing so would be a very bad move as far as fostering renewed loyalty from a community that seems to have become pretty disenfranchised. I also trust that they will eventually release a book which combines all the rules after they finish putting out at least the first five gang war books and I'm fairly sure they'll make sure it's better executed than the total mess exhibited in Underhive/Gang War 1. I don't trust them so much that I'll pre order it though. From this day forward I'm not buying any of their books until I've had a good read through them first. Especially at Australian prices.
 

dabbk

Gang Hero
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Tribe Council
Nov 26, 2016
701
1,492
163
Berlin, Germany
Duh. So I have finally had time to play some N17! Basic rules only with my wife, on the tryout scenario, and on the first scenario.

The modifiers for cc weapons is cool, but surprising. The +1 short range modifier for lasgun has been awful (damn Eschers!).

I 100% support the idea that they should have made a clearer separation between the boardgame and the advanced game versions. This has nothing to do with 2d/3d, but more "one offs, potentially pre-made, deathwatch:eek:verkill or shadespire like" vs "campaign, highly custom, good ol' necromunda". Both games sound awesome, but the separation here isnt clear enough and it is detrimental to all.


Nonetheless, I like the news rules. There are few pretty surprising things in there... but mostly, again: wtf book editting! It's almost as if they were pushing us to get started on N17CE right off the bat.


About that: I am really wondering how we could address the fact that, unlike good old Necromunda, this one isn't unsupported, and providing a vastly improved N17CE would still put us in trouble. Any suggestion on how to achieve this? I am seriously willing to put effort into this, if we figure out a sane way of doing it. That game, this new set of rules, deserves a better edited book - or two, one for the boardgame like version and one for the RPG Necromunda
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
2,987
6,468
138
34
Issy-les-Moulineaux 92130 France
About that: I am really wondering how we could address the fact that, unlike good old Necromunda, this one isn't unsupported, and providing a vastly improved N17CE would still put us in trouble. Any suggestion on how to achieve this?
Write a set of rules technically unrelated to Necromunda. Doesn't matter if the mechanisms are the same as long as the phrasing is different and no copyrighted material is used (no "Necromunda", no "Goliath", no"Boltgun", no out of ammo symbol, no scatter die, etc.) Game rules themselves are not protected by IP laws, but anything else in the book is.
Note that, even if the above is technically legal, it still won't prevent an overzealous lawyer from sending a C&D letter to @Malo (maybe on an unrelated basis, since the site does already use GW's IP (without permission I assume) but in a relatively harmless way) so maybe it would be safer to host it elsewhere.
This is what I had in mind anyway.

They are so forward thinking that with every codex they publish they are now promising their customers to fix the mistakes in it 2 weeks after it is released! How about that for quality control. Can't make this stuff up! wheres my face palm smiley.
Had the same reaction. It would be hilarious if it weren't so sad. At least they are straightforward about it.
 

MusingWarboss

Gang Hero
Oct 31, 2013
1,015
2,338
123
@MusingWarboss that’s exactly what happened to me in my first and only game so far. I have built my gangs at 1000 creds from the GW1 rules and showed up for a game wanting to try out my builds, turned out everyone else seems to have built theirs according to the pre made gangs.
Sorry to read you ran into that situation. In hindsight it seems pretty obvious that Underhive users would build their gangs as per the huge instruction sheet in the box and if they do create a custom one then they’ll use the rules in the book. Probably writing on the ganger cards in the box in ballpoint ink too. Cards you can’t get spares of yet. :rolleyes:

Those failures are all so well recognised they will surely be sorted out soon enough. It’s the messiness it creates that really annoys me. I already feel like I’d rather get rid of the two books I’ve already bought for this game and not buy anymore until they release a comprehensive edition. Disappointing as I was one of the most relentlessly optimistic commenters on here in the big thread.
Yeah, I kinda know how you feel. Overall I do like the game, my mates and I are easy going so we just glanced back at SW:A and old Necromunda rules and applied the logic of those to the new wherevthey were muddled. At least then everyone knows what they’re doing!

I was going to get all the books and stuff (too much enthusiasm) but now I’m just going to pick up the Cawdor one so I can use my old gang to the full. Hopefully once Gang Wars 2-4 are our they’ll release a compendium.

I just feel like they’ve sold us an unfinished game. One that’s in Beta design stage and we’re paying to play test it. It doesn’t help that we had two (three?) official versions of the old game previous which covered all this ground before in the course of two box bundled books or one hardback/pdf.

As much as it would have been annoying I’d rather Underhive was brutal underground gang warfare - the game - finished and polished. With extra gangs being added in as expansions to that. Then they could have sold us Necromunda: Gang War as a different completed tabletop 3D game once the miniatures were actually out!

There’s no shame in that for them to capitalise on their IP.
Instead they reminded us of, or rather slapped us in the face with, a rehashed reissue of the previous game in Shadow War only a few months before releasing this rather messy, disjointed new release.

They’ve applied new BloodBowl style of thinking and presentation to Necromunda and it doesn’t really work that well.

About that: I am really wondering how we could address the fact that, unlike good old Necromunda, this one isn't unsupported, and providing a vastly improved N17CE would still put us in trouble. Any suggestion on how to achieve this? I am seriously willing to put effort into this, if we figure out a sane way of doing it. That game, this new set of rules, deserves a better edited book - or two, one for the boardgame like version and one for the RPG Necromunda
Well, I think the quick answer is; we can’t.

Complex answer is that while it’s true game mechanics can’t be copyrighted, their legal team would have more than enough ammunition to shut down a community version here if nothing else because:

1: you’d have to rewrite everything, no original text taken from their book(s) at all. That would include not having gang or equipment names.
2: a “new” game appearing on a site dedicated to Necromunda with rules that are suspiciously close to their current game would lead them to think we’ve stolen it therefore could be undermining sales.

The best thing Yaktribe could do is have an unofficial downloadable community PDF FAQ addressing rules issues, with the intention that any GW FAQ would take precedence.

EDIT: Ninja’d by @Thorgor!
 

dabbk

Gang Hero
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Tribe Council
Nov 26, 2016
701
1,492
163
Berlin, Germany
you can’t get spares of yet.
As a quick answer to just that: there are some blank ones (I guess with some hints to either Goliath or Escher, like a logo somewhere) in the tactics cards packs. A bit lame to shell out s'more monies, but if you want, you can. Having bought the base box plus both card expansion packs, I now have probably more cards than I'll ever need (considering that I'll buy next card expansions...).
 

MusingWarboss

Gang Hero
Oct 31, 2013
1,015
2,338
123
As a quick answer to just that: there are some blank ones (I guess with some hints to either Goliath or Escher, like a logo somewhere) in the tactics cards packs. A bit lame to shell out s'more monies, but if you want, you can. Having bought the base box plus both card expansion packs, I now have probably more cards than I'll ever need (considering that I'll buy next card expansions...).
Well, yes. I’ll concede there are those branded ones.

I was talking of unbranded ones though. I don’t want to have to keep buying those card decks to get more if I choose to make a new gang though or invent new gang members (keeping the others) and end up with loads of duplicate other cards.
 
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p0dde

Gang Champion
Yak Philanthropist
Mar 2, 2016
439
516
113
Copenhagen, Denmark
I think a way to go about it would be to make small rule sets that only addressed parts of the rules. Eg. An alternative community trading post or alternative community advancement system. If we write it on top of the existing rules, people would still need the GW books to play, and GW wouldn't mind. It would be very different than what we know from NCE, but it would work.
 
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Benoksen

Ganger
Mar 15, 2016
167
243
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Oslo
I think a way to go about it would be to make small rule sets that only addressed parts of the rules. Eg. An alternative community trading post or alternative community advancement system. If we write it on top of the existing rules, people would still need the GW books to play, and GW wouldn't mind. It would be very different than what we know from NCE, but it would work.
I was also thinking of something like this, that it should be possible to write alternative rules, additions, adjustments and errata that don't directly compete with the publications from The Shop. That the supplements get published or spread in ways where they still depend on acces to purchased books. This could be by in some way developing a collection of community "alternative rules" and continuously upgrading these along the lines of TLR and NCE, but not making a full scale PDF rulebook that batters the original.
 

Malo

YakTribe Mechanicum
Staff member
Yak Founder
Feb 17, 2011
5,101
5,818
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York, PA, USA
yaktribe.games
Yes, we could do that. But it won't solve one of the major problem people have with the rules as they currently exist (they are all over the place). It would actually add yet another layer to it
Yeah legally right now the best we could do to solve that is a general keyword index referencing all official materials. I think this in combination with some re-written paragraphs of certain rules would be quite helpful to players as a "CE" but not blatantly duplicate the source material en masse.
 

Benoksen

Ganger
Mar 15, 2016
167
243
48
47
Oslo
Yes, that too... Completely see your points. The problem is that the messed up new first editions already is setting the ground for fnuked up play, and endless discussions. It's propably to early yet to begin with a clean up, and hopefully GW will take care of some of it themselves in a not too distant future.

Anyway, the system upgrades seems very sensible to me, and all in all it sounds as if the new Munda is a more dynamic and strategic game. I will defenitely get the Uhive-GW collection. However, I dread the coming debates with a couple of my (otherwise) best mates.
 

timdp

Gang Hero
Honored Tribesman
Jun 4, 2012
916
2,308
148
Sebastopol, CA
Sorry to read you ran into that situation. In hindsight it seems pretty obvious that Underhive users would build their gangs as per the huge instruction sheet in the box and if they do create a custom one then they’ll use the rules in the book. Probably writing on the ganger cards in the box in ballpoint ink too. Cards you can’t get spares of yet. :rolleyes:
The separate Escher card set has six blank ganger cards, as well as eight Escher tactics cards and 12 generic tactics cards
 

maxwellrpower

Gang Hero
Honored Tribesman
Apr 25, 2017
1,042
2,909
163
Melbourne, Australia
I haven't had a chance to play much yet @dabbk but when I do I will be keeping notes of every problem we encounter and will be more than happy to pitch in with fixing this game. As a community we have the luxury of way more heads and hands to put to the task and left to our own devices would definitely eventually come up with a much better version of the rules than GW ever could, so I think your suggestion makes good sense. We can just start a 'GW, ignore this as your peril' thread to keep a list of all the things they need to sort out, making it as easy as possible for them to release the quality comprehensive rule book we all want.
 

Benoksen

Ganger
Mar 15, 2016
167
243
48
47
Oslo
I haven't had a chance to play much yet @dabbk but when I do I will be keeping notes of every problem we encounter and will be more than happy to pitch in with fixing this game. As a community we have the luxury of way more heads and hands to put to the task and left to our own devices would definitely eventually come up with a much better version of the rules than GW ever could, so I think your suggestion makes good sense. We can just start a 'GW, ignore this as your peril' thread to keep a list of all the things they need to sort out, making it as easy as possible for them to release the quality comprehensive rule book we all want.
This sounds like a good way forewards, and one that GW propably can appreciate and not see as competition or undemining business. How can such a thread or list, in any form, be organized and a canon established? Threads very quickly become ... well, endless, especially interesting ones.