N18 Generic Delaque advice? (theory crafting)

Kairae

Gang Champion
Dec 29, 2017
294
199
43
Australia
Delaque appears to have 5 excellent pieces of house equipment.

Web Pistols
Web- gauntlets
Flechette Pistols
Photo Visors
5pt Autopistol

Web-pistols are OP. Probably not brokenly overpowered but certainly close. The only real issue with them is secondary weapons, as one of the scariest Scarce weapons in the Delaque list they're a prime candidate for Click...: a Flechette Pistol + Web-gauntlet + Smoke Grenades is a solid option on a build that will want to spend the early game manoeuvring into position.

Webgauntlets outperform Shock-staves under most conditions, particularly as a campaign progresses and high armour saves become more and more common. In combination with a Flechette Pistol these are quite scary: but high toughness enemies with high arm will give you a run for your money.

Flechette pistols are notably undercosted: they're a Needle Pistol + Autopistol with Gunshroud for 2/3rds of the cost. They're an ideal secondary weapon on any Leader/Champ and a Gunslinger Flechette Champ/Leader is quite viable (Spring Up, Gunslinger and Hipshooting will make a fun build). They do, however, struggle vs high toughness.

Your Gangers and Juve aren't supposed to get into CC so the lack of a decent 'ganger' CCWs is fine. 2 x Autopistols should be weapons 2 and 3 on all Gangers and this is solid enough for reaction attacks. A Lasgun + 2 x Autopistol Delaque Ganger costs the same as the Escher equivalent. 2 x Autopistols + Lasgun is probably the best staple Ganger build: the Autopistols give you a higher damage close ranged option, while the Lasgun has an obvious Hotshot + Gunshroud upgrade path to get more firepower into your gang. This allows you to build your Gangers as reliable but unspectacular muscle.

Cheap Photo-visors allow you to force your meta into a Smoke and Photo-visor arms race you're ideally positioned to win. Obvious early game choices for photo-visors are Long Rifle Champs / Gangers and other fire support fighters. This coupled with good Smoke throwing fighters (Juves and Hipshooting Champs with close ranged weapons) positions Delaque to really exploit this tactic.

Juves are actually really Solid. There's an obvious parallel with the Escher-Juve-missile. A +1 Move Juve with Web Pistol is a threat to most things in the game. The early game role of CdGer and Smoke-thrower means that they're quite useful early on. At 50pts for 2 x Autopistols + Smoke Grenades they're cheap enough that running a couple isn't an issue. At Str 3 they're better Grenadiers than their Escher equivalents as well. On graduation to Champion these make ideal Infiltrators.

This positions the gang as primarily mobile mid-ranged gunfighters who exploit Smoke and Darkness to take down shootier, larger or more resilient opponents.

But it does leave the gang with a natural weakness vs high toughness opponents. A Plasma Gun Champ, Long Guns and Hotshot Lasguns provide an option for dealing with this as your gang progresses. Equally the Spyker's Psychic Assault gives you an avenue for dealing damage to high toughness opponents.
 

Forward Assist

Gang Champion
Yak Comp 2nd Place
Apr 1, 2018
251
682
98
Basildon, UK
I've not play-tested it but there's probably a toxin synergy that's viable too. With flechette pistols, and stiletto knives, and choke grenades all being toxin/gas weapons in the HWL, I think a few chem synths as the campaign progresses will give an option for countering higher toughness.
 

Kairae

Gang Champion
Dec 29, 2017
294
199
43
Australia
I've not play-tested it but there's probably a toxin synergy that's viable too. With flechette pistols, and stiletto knives, and choke grenades all being toxin/gas weapons in the HWL, I think a few chem synths as the campaign progresses will give an option for countering higher toughness.
I think that you're still better off with a Web-gauntlet than a Stilleto Knife + Chem-Synth. Web-gauntlet's offer an option vs high save targets which both Flechette's and Stilleto Knives will struggle with. And even vs high toughness, a 6 still immediately causes an Injury Roll so they're better than many alternatives. That and Chem-Synths are only 72% effective at 6+ Int.

The dual Flechette Gunslinger build is probably the only thing that I'd consider Choke Grenades + Chem-synths on. That I think would be quite frightening. But I'd still want to keep the Web-gauntlet on that build for dealing with 'armour tanks' with respirators. Chem-synths - while they don't add much to gang rating are still quite expensive for Delaque -since they're Rare and not on the HWL, so I'd probably prefer to spend the creds on Hotshots, Gunshrouds and Photo-visors.

I can't really see a reason to ever take a Shock Stave though. Shock does offer some advantages vs high toughness, but you're still better off with a Web Gauntlet that is +1 to hit and still wounding everything lower than toughness 6 on a 5+, and ignores the probable 5+ or better save. With the excellence of Delaque short ranged firepower they're not likely to really make much use of Versatile: a Flechette Pistol (Champ) or 2 x Autopistols (Juve/Ganger) is as good or better as an alternative.
 

Kairae

Gang Champion
Dec 29, 2017
294
199
43
Australia
I was thinking giving him Flechette, Web Gauntlet and Spring Up. Upgrade him into Lie Low and Infiltrate. I haven't settled on his 3rd weapon yet. Maybe a Plasma Gun. Infiltrate as the third upgrade should allow me to pair him with an Infiltrate Juve with Web Pistol to screen him. Giving him a Plasma Gun would allow me to build my 3rd champ as a 2 x Flechette gunslinger: guns linger builds are great with Hipshooting, so is better for a Champ then a Leader. OTOH Spring Up, Lie Low and Infiltrate on a 2 pistol build (particularly if I go the Choke Grenades route) is solid as you're generally better off getting +1 BS then getting Gunslinger anyway.

I think Meltagun is overkill on a starting gang. But it is cool so is a solid 'aesthetics over efficiency' choice. Generally I prefer Plasma Guns over Meltas: the range is more useful than simple being more killy.
 

almic85

Gang Hero
Oct 30, 2014
732
1,191
108
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
@Kairae you know you can only use one pistol in close combat right?

All your guys that have 2x autopistols only get one attack in close combat as if they are using one autopistol.

Dual wielding pistols is only really good if you have high enough ballistic skill (or the gun slinger skill) to stay out of the enemies charge range and still hit them with one of the pistols.

Otherwise you are better off giving them a pistol and a close combat weapon.

The real question is are you better off with a shock stave, a stiletto knife, or a web gauntlet as your close combat weapon.
 

Lyracian

Ganger
Apr 10, 2018
197
118
63
Leicester, UK
Web-pistols are OP. Probably not brokenly overpowered but certainly close. The only real issue with them is secondary weapons, as one of the scariest Scarce weapons in the Delaque list they're a prime candidate for Click...: a Flechette Pistol + Web-gauntlet + Smoke Grenades is a solid option on a build that will want to spend the early game manoeuvring into position.
Web Pistols are not Scarce are you confusing them with the Web Projector on the line below? The Web Gun is slightly more expensive but the extra strength and Ammo roll seem worth it to me? Not sure I agree they are over powered.
Webgauntlets outperform Shock-staves under most conditions, particularly as a campaign progresses and high armour saves become more and more common. In combination with a Flechette Pistol these are quite scary: but high toughness enemies with high arm will give you a run for your money.
Gauntlets look amazing; you can also have Precision Shot on your champs to help against high armour.
They're an ideal secondary weapon on any Leader/Champ and a Gunslinger Flechette Champ/Leader is quite viable (Spring Up, Gunslinger and Hipshooting will make a fun build). They do, however, struggle vs high toughness.
The problem is that Leader does not have shooting and Champs do not have Agility as Primary making putting all those skills on one fighter somewhat harder. Does "Run and Gun" work with "Twin Gun Blazing"? Twin Gun says when you make a Shoot (Basic) but R'n'G is a (Double) action.
2 x Autopistols should be weapons 2 and 3 on all Gangers
the Lasgun has an obvious Hotshot + Gunshroud upgrade path to get more firepower into your gang.
I have never quite decided if it is worth the cost of giving Gangers more than one weapon. Adding Gunshroud, Hotshot and double pistols is adding 40 credits cost to each Ganger. I would want some Hotshot's but not sure it is worth the cost for the rest of the upgrades.
Cheap Photo-visors allow you to force your meta into a Smoke and Photo-visor arms race you're ideally positioned to win. Obvious early game choices for photo-visors are Long Rifle Champs / Gangers and other fire support fighters.
I think the Long Rifle champ wants the Infra-scope as it also reduces cover save. Goggles are for other fighters with more than one weapon.
Juves are actually really Solid. There's an obvious parallel with the Escher-Juve-missile. A +1 Move Juve with Web Pistol is a threat to most things in the game.
I was thinking of going with the Hand Flamer not Web Pistol. The gang already has a mix of web and toxic attacks. This way if people are taking web solvent or other counters you get a different avenue of attack. Blase is something else that ignore high toughness/armour.
@Kairae you know you can only use one pistol in close combat right?
The way I read the rules you can use two Pistols in Melee. It just means any third attack would only be unarmed (on the charge for instance).
@KairaeThe real question is are you better off with a shock stave, a stiletto knife, or a web gauntlet as your close combat weapon.
Gauntlets are great as they ignore armour. I would want to mix in an occasional knife to give some variety. Maybe Axes as they are cheap and give the extra point of strength.


I was thinking something like this to start.
210 Leader with Plasma Gun Overseer/Infiltrate?
160 Champ with Long Rifle + Infra Scope; Fast Shot then get Precision Shot
190 Champ with Flechette x2 + Web Gauntlet; Gunfighter/Infiltrate
180 Ganger with Web gun + Lasgun
65 x4 Gangers with Lasgun
It lack Smoke as a starting list. I could replace a Ganger with a Pistol Juve and get Smoke on two of the Gangers. The other thought was to have the Web Gun on the Leader (with Infiltrate) and the Plasma on the Ganger but I liked that the Web Gun did not need BS to hit.
 
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TabulaRasa

Gang Champion
Jul 26, 2018
422
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Stockholm
In regards to web weapons my opinion is that you should go for a gun instead of a pistol if possible. Since the pistol isn't a sidearm it's just a question if you think the extra S is worth the extra points, but as soon as a campaign starts rolling one of the first things ones tends to see is T4. On the web gauntlet it's a tricky one. Acc +1 and web is great, but it suffers from a low and fixed S profile. Of course you only need to wound once if you're able to CDG. It obviously have it's place, but might be better to pair it up with a plasma pistol which apart from the obviously strong profile fills the role of being able to do damage against things like the objective in sabotage.

IMO the long rifle isn't that great for actually taking out enemies. With only D1 you'll have a hard time taking someone OOA. I do however think it has a place as a means for crowd/board control if used with an infra sight and Overwatch. Since overwatch ends a fighters activation if it hits it's an excellent way to disrupt heavies/plasmas/overseers or whatever. Even knocking a familiar out of the protective distance of it's master so as to take away that WP save for one turn. As soon as you pumped up the BS and given him an las projector he will hit on his overwatch just as well as in his regular turn (2+ that is). If you take someone out while you use it it's a bonus.

Flechettes are lovely, but should probably be combined with the stiletto and a chemsynth to get the most out of it. Since the chemsynth no longer takes an action to use it's just an awesome bonus the times you manage your Int test and since your going to want this for either a flechette or a stiletto you might as well go for both at the same time so the bump in GR gives you as much bonuses as possible.

Two so far overlooked things is the throwing knives and the stun grenades.They might nor look as much on paper but the throwing knives are cheap for what they do and would probably work excellent as back up weapons to be added while your gang progresses. The stun grenade on the other hand have synergy with photon flash flares. Non of these are that expensive and one at a time they're not that super, but if you can multi activate and first land a stun grenade and then a flash flare this will mean that most other fighters will loose their next activation on anything but a 6. The stun grenade might also injure something and does come with a -1 save. This will be more reliable than smoke to get into combat or to keep you safe while you take the other gang's fighters out. One of each cost a total of 25 c which is dirt cheap.

Since the leader don't have access to shooting as a primary it might be better to leave any meltas or plasma guns to a champion as they're actually better at it.

I think that Delaque gangers should definitely support your CC specialists. On paper they're not any worse then a Escher ganger. Sure they can't get easily boosted with chemsynths and you can't have a stilettosword, but as support they will do the job just as well and carry some grenades at the same time.

Juves have great potential as mentioned before, but suffer with not having any 4+ to hit characteristic and so will have issues getting the upgrade needed to be allowed web pistols. They could maybe get the XP as a cleanup CDG worker of any potentially webbed victims.
 

Lyracian

Ganger
Apr 10, 2018
197
118
63
Leicester, UK
In regards to web weapons my opinion is that you should go for a gun instead of a pistol if possible. Since the pistol isn't a sidearm it's just a question if you think the extra S is worth the extra points
I am in agreement with you about taking the Gun for the extra strength. The main reasons I can see for a Web Pistol is either giving it a Juve (who has leveled) or with the new equipment rule Fighters can be given a Web Pistol but only newly hired Fighters can be given a Web Gun; that means if the SW Guy dies you need to find the extra 50 credits for a new fighter to give the weapon too.

IMO the long rifle isn't that great for actually taking out enemies. With only D1 you'll have a hard time taking someone OOA. I do however think it has a place as a means for crowd/board control if used with an infra sight and Overwatch. Since overwatch
Since the leader don't have access to shooting as a primary it might be better to leave any meltas or plasma guns to a champion as they're actually better at it.
That is part of the problem with the gang I cannot quite decide what to do with the leader. Maybe the Overwatch Long Rifle is the answer? It is at least something different to the usual Overseer.

Flechettes are lovely, but should probably be combined with the stiletto and a chemsynth to get the most out of it. Since the chemsynth no longer takes an action to use it's just an awesome bonus the times you manage your Int test and since your going to want this for either a flechette or a stiletto you might as well go for both at the same time so the bump in GR gives you as much bonuses as possible.
I like the idea of an all out Toxic Hero however in Melee the Knife is very much like the Pistol except it lacks Rapid Fire. With 2x Pistol and a Melee weapon you have a choice of 2 Pistol + 1 Unarmed or 1 Pistol and 2 Melee Weapon attacks. With Stiletto Knife having lost the +1 to Hit and new Toxic rule the only value over an Axe is hurting multi-wound models. If My gangers are getting anything I am raiding the bits box for Orc axes.

Two so far overlooked things is the throwing knives and the stun grenades.
Throwing Knifes are interesting but I keep struggling to see who I would want to give them too. As for Stun Grenades did you miss they lack the Blast trait? They are a taser shot to a single person. Photo-flash Grenades might work with the Grav Gun. Which is another strange weapon since it ignores armour but has an AP value.

This is a Delaque gang that I've scribbled up https://yaktribe.games/underhive/gang/the_needle_creepers.36913/
Depending on taste and if most of the games would be played in ZM I would probably drop the long rifles and make room for a plasma gun on the champion.
Interesting list. I do like the Hip Shooting Web Gun Champ but would prefer to have a second weapon to give options.
You seem to really like Shotguns is that for the 2 damage? I prefer starting with Lasguns and getting Hotshots on them later.
Not convinced Stiletto Knifes are worth it without the accuracy bonus.
 

TabulaRasa

Gang Champion
Jul 26, 2018
422
337
63
Stockholm
I am in agreement with you about taking the Gun for the extra strength. The main reasons I can see for a Web Pistol is either giving it a Juve (who has leveled) or with the new equipment rule Fighters can be given a Web Pistol but only newly hired Fighters can be given a Web Gun; that means if the SW Guy dies you need to find the extra 50 credits for a new fighter to give the weapon too.

That is part of the problem with the gang I cannot quite decide what to do with the leader. Maybe the Overwatch Long Rifle is the answer? It is at least something different to the usual Overseer.

I like the idea of an all out Toxic Hero however in Melee the Knife is very much like the Pistol except it lacks Rapid Fire. With 2x Pistol and a Melee weapon you have a choice of 2 Pistol + 1 Unarmed or 1 Pistol and 2 Melee Weapon attacks. With Stiletto Knife having lost the +1 to Hit and new Toxic rule the only value over an Axe is hurting multi-wound models. If My gangers are getting anything I am raiding the bits box for Orc axes.


Throwing Knifes are interesting but I keep struggling to see who I would want to give them too. As for Stun Grenades did you miss they lack the Blast trait? They are a taser shot to a single person. Photo-flash Grenades might work with the Grav Gun. Which is another strange weapon since it ignores armour but has an AP value.


Interesting list. I do like the Hip Shooting Web Gun Champ but would prefer to have a second weapon to give options.
You seem to really like Shotguns is that for the 2 damage? I prefer starting with Lasguns and getting Hotshots on them later.
Not convinced Stiletto Knifes are worth it without the accuracy bonus.
Well that's sort of my take on webers as well.

I think that the leader is probably best used in a capacity where he plays to his strengths. In this case one of them is to multi activate which would require him to play a more active role than an Overwatch board controller. So Overseer or close shooting/CC is probably what he is best suited for, and also come with access to Spring Up (which is aces).

When it comes to the doubling up on flechettes I'm a bit pensive since there's always the risk of running out of ammo and the auto pistol profile is lacklustre in comparison. One can always load up on a second one later on it that's of interest, but I'd go with reliability to start.

Probably give the throwing knives to an autogun or shotgun ganger? If someone drops in close they have a high capacity alternative to help them out of a pickle as well as having something if they run out of ammo. I'm seeing it more as a backup weapon.

Yes, I had completely missed that stun grenades totally lack the blast trait, which makes them really worthless and flash flares quite unreliable - not sure one would want to spend all those c on a grav gun for the synergy.

In regards to the list it is partly down to the D2 that makes the shotguns appealing to me. That and redundancy. I'm not really sold on the idea of one or two fighters going in close by themselves. IMO they that tends to get them shredded by other CC specialists or massed gunfire. In this list most of the team will be up close and be able to support each other. Goggles and executioner shells on the inbound to really put on the pain. And in my experience shotguns also tend to outperform lasguns most of the time. The long rifles are basically there just to keep the opposing gangs heads down while the rest gets in position. The webber champion will of course get some sort of additional equipment along the way, but I'm hesitant to giving him just an aut/las-gun or a regular pistol and don't want to sacrifice a weapon slot on garbage. So I'd rather wait a game until I can afford him something useful.
 

Lyracian

Ganger
Apr 10, 2018
197
118
63
Leicester, UK
I think that the leader is probably best used in a capacity where he plays to his strengths. In this case one of them is to multi activate which would require him to play a more active role than an Overwatch board controller. So Overseer or close shooting/CC is probably what he is best suited for, and also come with access to Spring Up (which is aces).
My other though for the Leader is the Backstab skill. Maybe not as the first skill however Web Gauntlet has Backstab trait. When combined that gives you a Str 5 Gauntlet that ignores armour if you can set up your charge. That is making it into quite a scary weapon.

When it comes to the doubling up on flechettes I'm a bit pensive since there's always the risk of running out of ammo and the auto pistol profile is lacklustre in comparison. One can always load up on a second one later on it that's of interest, but I'd go with reliability to start.
That is the same with any scares weapon such as Plasma Guns or Needle Rifle you might get a poor game where you run out of ammo early. If you are using the cards there is Proper Preparation to remove Scarce. I thought about having the Fletchette and the new Auto/Plasma pistol but that would making taking Chem Synth later very limited value.

In regards to the list it is partly down to the D2 that makes the shotguns appealing to me. T
Goggles and executioner shells on the inbound to really put on the pain. And in my experience shotguns also tend to outperform lasguns most of the time.
Execution shells makes Shotguns rock but I always seem to run out of ammo when using them. Hotshots stick around. The other downside is Executioner Shotguns are a total of 50 credits and a Boltgun is only 55 credits. Without Savvy Trader to get free Shells I am less keen on trying to stock up on them for Delaque as I predict lower income from Dominion campaign.

The webber champion will of course get some sort of additional equipment along the way, but I'm hesitant to giving him just an aut/las-gun or a regular pistol and don't want to sacrifice a weapon slot on garbage. So I'd rather wait a game until I can afford him something useful.
Did you have any thoughts about what weapon you would want them to have?

Also why a Stub Gun on your last Ganger when it is the same cost as an Auto Pistol?
 

TabulaRasa

Gang Champion
Jul 26, 2018
422
337
63
Stockholm
My other though for the Leader is the Backstab skill. Maybe not as the first skill however Web Gauntlet has Backstab trait. When combined that gives you a Str 5 Gauntlet that ignores armour if you can set up your charge. That is making it into quite a scary weapon.

That is the same with any scares weapon such as Plasma Guns or Needle Rifle you might get a poor game where you run out of ammo early. If you are using the cards there is Proper Preparation to remove Scarce. I thought about having the Fletchette and the new Auto/Plasma pistol but that would making taking Chem Synth later very limited value.

Execution shells makes Shotguns rock but I always seem to run out of ammo when using them. Hotshots stick around. The other downside is Executioner Shotguns are a total of 50 credits and a Boltgun is only 55 credits. Without Savvy Trader to get free Shells I am less keen on trying to stock up on them for Delaque as I predict lower income from Dominion campaign.

Did you have any thoughts about what weapon you would want them to have?

Also why a Stub Gun on your last Ganger when it is the same cost as an Auto Pistol?
With the new rules for charging that forces you to take the shortest route I think it might be hard to set it up and a bit too situational.

It sure have the same issue as plasmas and what not, but more importantly I’m not keen on running out of ammo right before a charge. Mostly because you’re generally not in a position where you would even want to spend an action on reloading. At least with a stiletto he will be able to get most jobs done. Might still arm with a second flechette in the end but more for double shooting and as backup. Although by that point one might be better served with something else.

The regular shotgun is fine as is, but it is nice to have the option to add the executioner shells if the funds come up. Sure boltguns are sweet but isn’t in the HWL and the role for this is more like defensive midfielders in football.

The choice for a stubgun was mostly for variation. Not necessarily the better choice which I’m fully aware of.
 

Lyracian

Ganger
Apr 10, 2018
197
118
63
Leicester, UK
It sure have the same issue as plasmas and what not, but more importantly I’m not keen on running out of ammo right before a charge. Mostly because you’re generally not in a position where you would even want to spend an action on reloading. At least with a stiletto he will be able to get most jobs done. Might still arm with a second flechette in the end but more for double shooting and as backup.
I am definitely on Web Gauntlet over Stiletto. That way I only need one of the pistols to still have ammo. Looking at the sprue there is only one Fletchette on each so making dual Pistols will need some chopping or modelling. Given there is also a lack of web weapons I may be waiting to see what FW has to offer before building these guys. At least I have plenty of Guardman Lasguns to hand out to my Gangers.

@Lyracian im on holidays away from my new rulebook, but I am assuming they haven’t deleted the line “if the other weapon is a pistol, they are made as unarmed attacks” from the close combat section?
They have reworded it. Says "Remaining Attacks" must be with melee or unarmed. Section 2 Pick Weapons says can use two weapons with Melee or Sidearm trait. The bit that said "If they do not have another weapon (or the other weapon is a pistol)" has been removed.
 
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Kairae

Gang Champion
Dec 29, 2017
294
199
43
Australia
Huh, I could have sworn Web-weapons were all scarce. Why are Web-weapons not scarce?

Yeah, I'm tending to a 2 x Flechette Leader with Spring Up and then getting into Lie Low and Infiltrate. I think Gunslinger is a waste of an upgrade: Trick Shot is as good if cover is involved, and +1 BS is strictly better if you're taking it as an advance (and an option for the Leader). Realistically shooting isn't reliable enough that you can get away with splitting shots within pistol ranges (although, admittedly there are situational uses). Infiltrate fills the same role as hipshooting (with different tactical trade-offs).

I assume that 'Run and Gun' works with 'Twin Gun Blazing' because of 'rule of cool' but yeah, you're probably right strictest RAW it doesn't look like it: to the YAQ!

Re: Backstab: Given that a +1 S upgrade is cheaper (8XP vs 9XP) on a Champ/Leader and affects grenades, I don't see why you'd ever take Backstab. That, and I think the Backstab trait is overcosted, as best as I can tell it's 10 creds whereas +1 S is 5 creds. Backstab should be +1 S AND -1 AP and it'll start being useful. As it is, it's meh and good luck. To reliably get a Backstab off you need to get someone else into CC first: Juves are great for this, Charge but don't Fight (the rules say 'may', so it's optional), this blocks the shortest path meaning that your Champ / Leader will be more likely to hitting the back.

I still can't see past Flechette + Web Gauntlet as the weapons 2/3 for pretty much any Leader / Champ. The only place I'd see something different is on on a Web Gun Champ: Plasma Pistol gives you a good option vs high-T opponents. Even vs T5 (with no Chem-synth) both the Flechete and Web Gauntlet are on a 5+ to cause an Injury roll, which isn't awful with Rapid Fire + multiple attacks. It's a pity that Delaque don't get Power Knives: Web Gun + Plasma Pistol + Power Knife would be an excellent alternative to Flechette + Web Gauntlet builds.

My meta ( when I play :'( ) allows weapon swapping, so a Web Gun can be bought later and the Web Pistol handed off to a Juve. I think you're right otherwise, Web Gun on champs for the strength later on. Otherwise, yeah, you need to compromise either on early campaign numbers or later campaign punch.

Re: 2 x Autopistol, Hotshot Lasgun Gangers. That's only 95 creds: honestly I think 80-120 cred Gangers is what you aim for mid-late campaign. You need Gangers who can hold their own in random crew scenarios. 2 x pistols + 1 unarmed isn't awful in CC if you pile them in to help your CC champs. Clearly this is a lower priority upgrade than other things, but it's a solid use of mid-campgain creds.

I think the gang really needs a couple of Long Rifles to provide fire support. You're right, these aren't great at taking things down but I agree with @TabulaRasa on their utility to control a firing line. I think Fast Shot is overrated unless you're going Overseer Leader + Fast Shot champ builds (in which case, play Van Saar): smart players on tables with decent terrain density force you to Move+Shoot anyway.

So:
Leader Flechette Pistol, Autopistol, (Flechette Pistol), Web Gauntlet, Spring Up, (Infiltrate, Lie Low), (Photo Visor, Smoke Grenades)
Champ Web Pistol (Web Gun), Autopistol, (Plasma Pistol), Web Gauntlet, Hipshooting, (Infiltrate) (Photo Visor, Smoke Grenades)
Champ Long Rifle (w/ Infra Sight), Autopistol (Flechette Pistol), Web Gauntlet, Overwatch, (Precision Shot)
Ganger Long Rifle, Autopistol, (Autopistol)
4 x Ganger Lasguns, (2 x Autopistol)
2 x Juves 2 x Autopistols, (Smoke Grenades), (Web Pistol), (+1 Move, Infiltrate)

https://yaktribe.games/underhive/gang/aaa.37191/
 

almic85

Gang Hero
Oct 30, 2014
732
1,191
108
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
I disagree with you guys on the webgun being worth the extra cost over the webpistol for a starting gang.

Against everyone but Goliaths they have the same chance of wounding their target. Yes once gangs start getting toughness increases on their champs and leader the webgun is better, but there are only so many of them in each gang.

@TabulaRasa in the gang you posted I would probably look as dropping the stub and photflash grenades from the last two gangers.

I’d probably also change the last ganger to a juve and replace his stiletto knife with an autopistol and pick up dumdum bullets from the trading post after the first game.

A stub gun with dum dums worth 10 creds is as good in close combat as the stiletto knife worth 20 unless your opponent has multiple wounds.

This will give you enough credits for another ganger with 15 creds left to arm them with an autogun, lasgun, or dual autopistols.
 

Kairae

Gang Champion
Dec 29, 2017
294
199
43
Australia
For me, it's more about getting stuck with a Web Pistol into the late campaign when you're seeing T4 and T5 more commonly. You're absolutely correct about it otherwise.

Web Pistol + Plasma Pistol is probably actually a versatile option to cover both threats: at 130 creds it's only 15 creds more expensive than a Web Gun alone. It lets you get numbers early, get a Plasma Pistol after a couple of games and then have a high strength weapon in the late game. Where you compromise instead is on your champ's CC ability early in the campaign (which is probably not that much of an issue).
 

almic85

Gang Hero
Oct 30, 2014
732
1,191
108
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
For the sake of posting my own for people to critique belownis my first pass of a Delaque Gang.

I’ve done a couple of things I’m not sure on (webgun instead of webpistol champ, long rifle ganger, and autopistol/stub gun juve, instead of a plasmagun fast shot champ) but I think it’s a solid list with enough bodies and room to grow into the campaign.

https://yaktribe.games/underhive/gang/sump_vipers.35270/
 

TabulaRasa

Gang Champion
Jul 26, 2018
422
337
63
Stockholm
I disagree with you guys on the webgun being worth the extra cost over the webpistol for a starting gang.

Against everyone but Goliaths they have the same chance of wounding their target. Yes once gangs start getting toughness increases on their champs and leader the webgun is better, but there are only so many of them in each gang.

@TabulaRasa in the gang you posted I would probably look as dropping the stub and photflash grenades from the last two gangers.

I’d probably also change the last ganger to a juve and replace his stiletto knife with an autopistol and pick up dumdum bullets from the trading post after the first game.

A stub gun with dum dums worth 10 creds is as good in close combat as the stiletto knife worth 20 unless your opponent has multiple wounds.

This will give you enough credits for another ganger with 15 creds left to arm them with an autogun, lasgun, or dual autopistols.
Yep, in the start the pistol will just as likely do the job, although with savvy players this will be one of the first upgrades they’ll get on champs etc, which is, to be frank, probably your priority targets. Especially since they’re usually the ones with more than one wound as well as high armor. I don’t think that the plasma pistol is a good alternative since it fills a different role (no template).

Yeah the flash flares will be dropped since I was under the illusion that stun grenades had a template (read previous post for reasoning). But I’m unsure as to the point of getting a juve since the list is considered for dominion play which means you’ll bound to get some for free eventually. I could also drop the flares for smoke, or goggles. But, on the other hand it might be worth it for another body.

For the sake of posting my own for people to critique belownis my first pass of a Delaque Gang.

I’ve done a couple of things I’m not sure on (webgun instead of webpistol champ, long rifle ganger, and autopistol/stub gun juve, instead of a plasmagun fast shot champ) but I think it’s a solid list with enough bodies and room to grow into the campaign.

https://yaktribe.games/underhive/gang/sump_vipers.35270/
It looks solid. To compare it to my list you lack in board/crowd control but gained in alpha potential. I’m not sure it would work better than mine as I suspect it depends on player/board/gang you’re facing. It might be that yours is more of a glass cannon, and that’s the reason for all my smoke and the long rifles.

Hip shooting is nice but in this context I probably just get infiltrate on him to have some redundancy up front and to take some of the pressure off the other two. It’s probably easier to start off this way and then get hip shooting than the other way around.

I’m not sure that just one long rifle is enough to make much difference however, so unless your priorities are to get an additional ASAP it might be worth dropping it for something else and get someone a smoke grenade for som extra resilience.
 
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