N18 Generic Delaque advice? (theory crafting)

SoothSayer

Juve
Jul 21, 2018
45
27
33
Lisle, IL, USA
@Lyracian im on holidays away from my new rulebook, but I am assuming they haven’t deleted the line “if the other weapon is a pistol, they are made as unarmed attacks” from the close combat section?
Yeah going to double check my book in a bit but I do know for certain, the old rulebook explicitly forbid that.

(That: being you may only ever shoot one pistol in melee and everything else in unarmed attacks)
 

Lyracian

Ganger
Apr 10, 2018
197
119
63
Leicester, UK
Yeah going to double check my book in a bit but I do know for certain, the old rulebook explicitly forbid that.
(That: being you may only ever shoot one pistol in melee and everything else in unarmed attacks)
I will be interested to see how others read the new rulebook since they removed the line saying "other weapon is also a pistol".
My issue is not just that overwatch isn’t that good.
It’s that the long rifle isn’t a great weapon either.
It’s the infrasight that actually makes me think it might work.
With Overwatch you lose the Aim action essential giving you a -1 to hit. The advantage is you do not have to move to get LoS you can wait for them to step out or move.
If you're ownly ever playing ZM, I'd probably steer clear of the Long Rifle. I've literally had a single firing lane longer than 18" in ZM games.
It is the situational use. Probably great on SM but not so good on ZM.
Re: Gangers with Web Guns. There's two points in favour of Champs with it: resilience and access to Hipshooting. It's why I think a Plasma Pistol is a great secondary weapon for a Webber champ: it uses their strenghs to add options.
Tl;dr either champ or ganger is viable, they just do different things.
I wonder if this is another SM vs ZM loadout debate? Hipshooting Champ is wonderful in confinded spaces but more limited if you have to spend 3 turns getting into range.
A Sniper is great if you can shoot someone 3 feet away but not good if you have to get into pistol range.

Advanced Building - Where to go next?
I think between us we have come up with some great ideas for a base gang. The next question is how do they advance? What equipment do they take? I have not discussed armour because that is just get as much as you can Carapace/Mesh and Undersuit.

Leader
We have a Fletchette and Web Gauntlet to start but what next? A second pistol seems lackluster without access to Gunfighter. Add a shotgun or save up for a Bolter? Maybe if we are using them for Overseer we do not bother with the extra weapon.

Hipshooting Web Gun Champ
The more I think about this guy the more I like him (in a ZM game). I could see starting with Smoke Grenades. Plama Pistol, and I assume melee weapon, has been suggested for his other gear. I was also thinking about other Grenades? Hip Shooting gives -1 to attack but that does not really matter with blast weapons. A Grenade and Flail as weapons would make +St useful. I am probably just dumping +2 Toughness on him though as he is likely to attract a lot of attention.

Gunfigher Champ
This is my 'Rule of Cool' why I want to play this gang. :0)
With Master Crafted Fletchette's being only 40 Credits that and Photogoggles are at the top of my list of buys. In a campaign I could see even starting with one pistol and buying the other Master Crafter straight away. (I would probably start with Trick Shot in that case).

Long Rifle Champ
This is another case where Master Crafted can really make use of the cheap weapon cost. Especially if you wanted to use Overwatch to snipe enemy as they activate. What I want here is for Forge World to make the Long Rifle pose that is in the artwork. If they got the Trick Shot skill I could see replacing the infrasight with Goggles and Mono sight. Not sure I would give them any powerful backup weapons since I want them at range. A pistol and Axe mean they can function in melee.
 

almic85

Gang Hero
Oct 30, 2014
961
1,526
113
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
Infiltrate champs should be getting a meltagun and close combat weapon.
First upgrade should be toughness and wounds.

Hip shooting webgun should get a close combat weapon or two for when he gets charged. Maybe two fletchette pistols.
First upgrade is extra movement, then toughness and wounds.

Long rifle champ should get an auto or lasgun expand weapon.
First upgrade is extra ballistic skill, then choose your own adventure.

Overwatch leader or champ should get a auto/las/boltgun so he can work at any range and support any other fighter.
 

TabulaRasa

Gang Hero
Jul 26, 2018
500
446
73
Stockholm
When it comes to weapon choices I think it’s also a bit down to flavor for me. I’m not going to begrudge any one else’s life choices but to me things like axes and heavy weapons doesn’t really seem to fit the spirit. If going mostly for a ZM context I’d probably drop the long rifle for a plasma champ. The boltgun might be a good secondary weapon for a leader (or why not a combi needler if you’re going for the chemsynth).

On champions with webbers overwatch is probably an excellent 2nd or 3rd skill. He is bound to from time to time have someone pass their recovery test in the end of the turn he’s just webbed them and this will allow him to do it again even if the opponent gets priority. This will also be excellent deterrent against any CC gangs that you’ll eventually be forced a bit too close for comfort to. If you go down this road I think a shotgun might be a better alternative, together with executioner shells he will be quite reliable at a lot of ranges and give a tactical edge.

I agreed that the long rifle isn’t worth anything in ZM, but as to camping positions in the deployment zone I think it’s down to how much elevated terrain you have. In my group we have a lot but also some that cuts off LOS across the board. Mostly this means that you’ll be able to target other campers but not that likely to do so with targets on ground and mid levels (if the opponent is savvy). This makes it useful for shutting down a huge chunk of the opponent’s heavies, which will probably be your greatest obstacle otherwise. To reliably do this you would need the BS increase, las projector as well as infra sight, and master crafted (great idea). Equipment total for this would be a total of 100, which is quite cost effective imo. Don’t forget that you more or less just have to set him up well first turn and he’ll be able to neuter and perhaps (eventually) OOA his target, unless he manages to knock back it out of sight (which is probably likely to be off it’s perch and to a long fall).

Infiltrate champs should be getting a meltagun and close combat weapon.
First upgrade should be toughness and wounds.

Hip shooting webgun should get a close combat weapon or two for when he gets charged. Maybe two fletchette pistols.
First upgrade is extra movement, then toughness and wounds.

Long rifle champ should get an auto or lasgun expand weapon.
First upgrade is extra ballistic skill, then choose your own adventure.

Overwatch leader or champ should get a auto/las/boltgun so he can work at any range and support any other fighter.
Do I have to? ;-)

I think there’s pros and cons to both our suggestions (where they don’t overlap), so a matter of taste and meta surely? For instance; Overwatch might not be that great on a leader with spring up as the one skill relies on him being active and the other mitigates the disadvantages of being prone. I’d probably go for Overseer or infiltrate on that build instead.
 
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COLBOURNE

Ganger
Apr 3, 2018
61
71
38
Vienna, Austria
"When it comes to weapon choices I think it’s also a bit down to flavor for me. I’m not going to begrudge any one else’s life choices but to me things like axes and heavy weapons doesn’t really seem to fit the spirit."

that's it for me too. I get the point about throwing knives being less than effective, but it fits with my gang style of sneaky silent death (or it will be when they gain more experience and credits)
 

viniciusmanga

New Member
Jan 2, 2019
2
0
1
Hi all,

I am pretty new to necromunda and picked up a box of delaque models and we have a campaign in my local store starting soon. I've read a bit on this topic and ended up coming up with this list below. As I didn't come up with names yet, just put the numbers :D

Any advice is highly welcomed.

Delaque Gang
111 Leader - Flechette Pistol x2, Web Gauntlet, Mesh Armor, Spring up - 220
222 Champion - Long Rifle, Infra-sights, Flak Armor, Overwatch - 240
333 Champion - Web Gun, Smoke Grenade, Mesh Armor, Hip Shooting - 170
444 Ganger - Long Rifle, Infra-sights, Flak Armor - 115
555 Ganger - Autogun, Flak Armor - 65
666 Ganger - Autogun, Flak Armor - 65
777 Ganger - Autogun, Flak Armor - 65
888 Juve - Stiletto Knife, Smoke Grenade - 60
 

Kairae

Gang Champion
Dec 29, 2017
319
233
58
Australia
@Lyracian there's no requirement to Aim with infrasight as far as I can tell.

Re: Hipshooting Webber champ. I don't think it's a ZM vs SM thing. As you identify later with Smoke grenades he's getting work done for you during his approach even in SM. I find it quite common for my first couple of turns to be entirely manoeuvring anyway.

Otherwise I think you're on the money. I do think that the Leader is a better gunfighter base though, but yeah if you're getting value from the multiple targets then I can see it.
 

Lyracian

Ganger
Apr 10, 2018
197
119
63
Leicester, UK
Any advice is highly welcomed.

Delaque Gang
111 Leader - Flechette Pistol x2, Web Gauntlet, Mesh Armor, Spring up - 220
888 Juve - Stiletto Knife, Smoke Grenade - 60
Not sure about double Pistol on the leader since he cannot get Shooting skills as Primary. Also with a 5+ WS I would rather give the Juve cheaper pistols to use rather than a Knife. He might get a lucky hit with Toxic but in melee he mostly going to just die. He throws some Smoke and then takes a bullet for the gang. I would even be tempted by a Stub Gun for the +2 to hit but I think Auto Pistols Rapid Fire edges it out since they cost the same.


@Lyracian there's no requirement to Aim with infrasight as far as I can tell.
I probably did not make that clear; I was meaning Overwatch gives you a single action rather than two. Thus you miss out on the aim or move that you would have done as well as shoot.

Re: Hipshooting Webber champ. I don't think it's a ZM vs SM thing. As you identify later with Smoke grenades he's getting work done for you during his approach even in SM. I find it quite common for my first couple of turns to be entirely manoeuvring anyway.
Having debated with myself I think you are right. When you add in how cheap Master Crafted Long Rifles are I think I will swap to Hipshooting Web as Champ #2 to start and the Long Rifle Champ will be Champ #3 (first new recruit) and start with a master crafted weapon. Flechette Pistols in stash will get used but not sure the gang has any use for another Long Rifle.

Otherwise I think you're on the money. I do think that the Leader is a better gunfighter base though, but yeah if you're getting value from the multiple targets then I can see it.
Even though he can not get the Gunfighter skill? or were you not meaning from giving him twin pistols?
 

viniciusmanga

New Member
Jan 2, 2019
2
0
1
@Lyracian Thanks for the feedback. does it make sense with the points from the 2nd pistol and the stilleto knife from the juve to spread a few photo-goggles from the start? specially on the leader? Or just save it up for my second game and maybe get the spyker? Also, is a weapon such as a heavy stubber viable for delaque? Or I should just stick with something like a plasma gun?
 

TabulaRasa

Gang Hero
Jul 26, 2018
500
446
73
Stockholm
Not sure about double Pistol on the leader since he cannot get Shooting skills as Primary. Also with a 5+ WS I would rather give the Juve cheaper pistols to use rather than a Knife. He might get a lucky hit with Toxic but in melee he mostly going to just die. He throws some Smoke and then takes a bullet for the gang. I would even be tempted by a Stub Gun for the +2 to hit but I think Auto Pistols Rapid Fire edges it out since they cost the same. So in this sense you won’t lose out on aiming since he doesn’t need it and moving is up to you. Remember also that if you activate him in your turn, move to engage a target that’s already activated he’ll be able to do it again regardless if the opponent gets priority.



I probably did not make that clear; I was meaning Overwatch gives you a single action rather than two. Thus you miss out on the aim or move that you would have done as well as shoot.

Having debated with myself I think you are right. When you add in how cheap Master Crafted Long Rifles are I think I will swap to Hipshooting Web as Champ #2 to start and the Long Rifle Champ will be Champ #3 (first new recruit) and start with a master crafted weapon. Flechette Pistols in stash will get used but not sure the gang has any use for another Long Rifle.

Even though he can not get the Gunfighter skill? or were you not meaning from giving him twin pistols?
You don’t lose an action with overwatch, you gain the tactical flexibility to try to shoot out of sequence. And as pointed out earlier you can do this on 2+ with reroll with an advance and a couple of cheap tp items. This will still hold even if you want to activate and he can then still hit on 2+ even after moving, so no need to aim ever.

I agree that the leader probably isn’t the best material for a gunfighter - you really want access to the shooting tree for that. Especially since the flechettes doesn’t come with any acc bonuses on the toxin profile. With the bad ammo he’ll not be that reliable in cc either without a cc weapon. Best way to go is probably with a bolter/shotgun or similar. If you have spring up then lie low would be disgusting. Especially if equipped with something shooty that’s beyond most weapons long profile (once again read boltgun or plasma).
 

Kairae

Gang Champion
Dec 29, 2017
319
233
58
Australia
I run Escher gunfighters, so dont think Shooting skills are at all necessary.

Personally I don't think the ability to split shots on a Gunfighter is that big a deal, I can see it being attractive but not decisive. Which is what I was getting at before @Lyracian. The biggest advantage that Gunfighter gives you is basically just +1 BS: which is cheaper taken as an advance.

I think the first skill a gunfighter needs is a 'movement' skill to allow them to get into range to fight, so Spring Up or Hipshooting. Hipshooting pairs well with Smoke Grenades (or any other type of grenade) as discussed earlier, and even if you play that TGB can't be used with Run and Gun the tactical flexibility it provides is useful.

I think a Leader with Spring Up, Infiltrate, 2 x Flechette Pistols, Choke Grenades, Chem-synth and a Web Gauntlet will be very effective. Adding Lie Low is just gravey for Spring Up/Lie Low shenanigans.

I can also see a similarly equipped champion with Hipshooting + Gunfighter being very effective. The anti-synergy being outweighed by the tactical flexibility of being able to either Run and Gun and grenade/engage a single target or TGB for more firepower.
 
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TabulaRasa

Gang Hero
Jul 26, 2018
500
446
73
Stockholm
I do like the principle of a Delaque Gang that is CC competent but tends to stay out of CC.

Here is my Gang so far, still have like 450 credits left. Any advice on what I should add?

https://yaktribe.games/underhive/print/gang/38028
Well it's illegal so hard to tell. Too many skills on leader and one champ + too few gangers for the amount of juves you're bringing.

EDIT; why are you giving photo goggles on the long rifle? Infra sight is a bit more expensive but much better, especially since you're only carrying one weapon. Otherwise the list looks alright. Maybe looking a bit thin on damage output. This is probably down to the same thing as having too many juves. The weber guy won't need photo goggles RAW (unless they fixed that in N18) and you could probably afford and infra sight on the long rifle by dropping this. Since you don't have that many bodies to drop smoke grenades consistently you'll probably won't need that many smoke grenades. Most of the times you can get around it by multi activating and shooting before you pop the smoke and most likely it won't stick around to next turn anyway.

Oh, and leaders don't have shooting skills as primary so can only get gunfighter by randomly generating it after the start of the campaign.
 
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Evilution

New Member
Jan 1, 2019
2
0
1
https://yaktribe.games/underhive/gang/the_silent_ones.38343/

This is my starter gang i will be using in a new campaign.

The leader will be next to my sniper champion staying out of trouble and using overseer on him so he can shoot 4 times as he has quick shot. as i get more credits the leader will be equiped with a bolter.

My other champion with the webgun and hip shooting will be leading my vanguard,2 gangers with shot guns and a juve they all have smoke grenades. i want to give him infiltrate as a next skill and hope to add another champion to drop in with him.

My other 3 gangers have lasguns and will give covering fire, these will be upgraded with hotshot as the campaign goes on.
 

TabulaRasa

Gang Hero
Jul 26, 2018
500
446
73
Stockholm
Looks a lot bet still have a gr of over a 1000. You could drop the web gauntlet on your champ and some photo goggles to get it in line. Also your long rifle champ still have too many skills to be legal from start and still not really sure that any of those skills will contribute much. If you can shake loose the creds I would switch the stun grenades for smoke or flash flares since they don't have the blast trait, making them practically useless.
 

BrightIdea

New Member
Dec 7, 2018
5
2
3
Maryland
Looks a lot bet still have a gr of over a 1000. You could drop the web gauntlet on your champ and some photo goggles to get it in line. Also your long rifle champ still have too many skills to be legal from start and still not really sure that any of those skills will contribute much. If you can shake loose the creds I would switch the stun grenades for smoke or flash flares since they don't have the blast trait, making them practically useless.
https://yaktribe.games/underhive/print/gang/38028
Is this better?
 
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