N18 Goliath starting list advices

[mateyboy3000]

Is T4 W3 with Scar Tissue (all incoming hits -1Damage) really more survivable than T6 W3 or T5 W4?

I'm always tempted by Natborn as it gives you a 2xp discount to getting S/T advance and choosing which. So you are only 12xp away from T8 which is just so nice/scary.

Not initially but if you also invest one toughness advancement and a servo harness which isn't unusual or particularly hard for a leader imo he is then T6 3W and dramatically more survivable than starting there.

Unfortunately the goliath toughness shenanigans are over, one of the changes with the release of Ash wastes was to introduce minimum and maximum charectaristic lines, no fighter can push their toughness beyond 6 anymore (gear can still push beyond this but the maximum is now 7 with harness base). It was also 14 xp for taking the same advancement again, you forgot the 2xp tax for repeat stats

 

[Ratik]

Thank you for the fabulous and comprehensive response!

Not initially but if you also invest one toughness advancement and a servo harness which isn't unusual or particularly hard for a leader imo he is then T6 3W and dramatically more survivable than starting there.

100% with you there. That makes a lot of sense.

Unfortunately the goliath toughness shenanigans are over, one of the changes with the release of Ash wastes was to introduce minimum and maximum charectaristic lines, no fighter can push their toughness beyond 6 anymore (gear can still push beyond this but the maximum is now 7 with harness base).

Noooooooo! My toughness shenanigans! Why can't a make human with more toughness than a building anymore.
That actually makes a lot of sense. T8 W4 Tyrants with Heavy carapace might be just a little bit ridiculous.

It was also 14 xp for taking the same advancement again, you forgot the 2xp tax for repeat stats

Now I know why this forum has a ranking system and why I'm a Juve

 

[MrAndersson]

Is T4 W3 with Scar Tissue (all incoming hits -1Damage) really more survivable than T6 W3 or T5 W4?

Of course, that depends on the nature of the incoming fire. Against D1 weapons, it's obviously not. But those are generally not the weapons to be afraid of. Against S5 D2 weapons, T6 W3 is equal to T4 scar tissue. But against boltguns, grenade launchers and most heavy weapons, scar tissue wins out.

 

[Gremi]

Another effective leader starting build (for me at least) has been to equip him with a Boltgun then pistol & hand to hand weapon based on taste.
While not nearly as deadly as the same with a heavy bolter its a good middle ground to start the leader that is way cheaper (approx. 250 Creds)
It takes advantage of his higher BS and gives him a high powered rapid fire weapon that can fire up to 24".
Also, once you have the creds to upgrade his weapons that Boltgun can go onto one of the gangers

Nice idea!

The 55 creds bolter isnt too expensive with pistol and ccw ?

But it look better than the classic combi plasma.

 

[Psyan]

It's a lot cheaper than a Heavy Bolter and Suspensor!

 

[MrAndersson]

And there is one loadout that is even cheaper than boltgun/pistol/ccw, and just as effective. Boltgun only.

 

[Stompzilla]

Don't rule out the humble Combat Shotgun.

Our last campaign, my Goliath boss started out with just a combat shotgun - my thinking being it encourages him to get close and keep moving forward, rather than being able to stand off at a distance with a Bolter- gene smythed to T5, M5, W3, Natborn with Nerves of steel.

By campaign's end he was a M7, T6, CL4 monster with Firestorm Ammo, a power Axe and stub dum. If you were within 12" when he activated, that was your ass.

 

[MrAndersson]

Don't rule out the humble Combat Shotgun.

Why not? It's a more expensive version of a boltgun, and worse in almost every aspect.

 

[Gremi]

The combat shotgun look having a pretty small range.
Compare to classic shotgun, the salvo ammo is a little more intersting than solid ammo but 12" is pretty short.

The template can be interesting but all this really worth 30c more?

For cheap, you get a ling range bolter, with ap 1 and rapid fire too.

 

[Stompzilla]

Why not? It's a more expensive version of a boltgun, and worse in almost every aspect.

Except that it's not.

It's got much better ammo checks which is straight up worth the extra 5 creds, has shredder ammo as an option which is great especially early on when dealing with low armour and T3 and is also essentially a Bolter at 12", which, as a Goliath is the range you really want to be at anyway and then there's the special ammo you can pile on as the campaign progresses. Firestorm being amazing.

OK, if you play on planet bowling ball on a table that's too big (3ftx3ft is best for Necromunda), only ever play missions that don't involve objectives, or having to move anywhere and never play ZM then the Bolter is always better but if you're doing that, why are you even playing Necromunda?

 

[MrAndersson]

The template is next to useless for dealing damage. It only has an advantage over regular ammo if the enemy has T1.

24" vs 12" range is a big thing, even with a decent amount of terrain. And on top of that, there is the advantage in to hit modifiers between 4" and 12".

 

[Stompzilla]

With the most respect possible, what a load of utter drivel.

S2 scattershot is great at dealing damage, especially in the early stages of a campaign.

1 to 6 automatic hits that wound on a 5+ is most certainly not useless for dealing damage.

Again, the ammo roll is better and you get the advantage of being able to guarantee hits and thus pins on multiple models.

Throw in Firestorm and you get S5, AP-1 Blaze.

For a character that wants to get up close and personal and be able to reliably continue to use their weapon and not have it become an expensive club the first time an ammo check is required, the combat shotgun is the go to weapon of choice.

My Goliath leader with his trusty combat shotgun has done serious work in the past, and I've tried many variations on the theme, including armed with a Bolter (Which is still a very good choice).

Not that the Bolter is bad. I loves me some Bolter action but for this particular character who should be leading from the front, personally, I think the combat shotgun is the better option and to high handedly declare that it is worse in almost every situation is hyperbole at best.

There's more to winning games than just raw numbers on a spreadsheet. Putting this guy into a position where he's a potential template threat puts your opponent under pressure and forces them to make tough decisions. Even if you hit with the template and fail to kill, do they stand up and try to shoot back? Do they stand up and run away? He's T6 with 3 wounds and nerves of steel. If you don't kill him, you're getting charged and probably torn apart. The more tough decisions you force an opponent to make, the more likely they are to make a mistake.

Leaders don't exist in a vacume either. They have a whole gang behind them. Do you shoot at the rapidly closing boss, who's supported by a couple of forge born, or the infiltrating Stimmer with incendiary grenades? What about the Missile Launcher toting forge boss who's rraining hell down on the gang from afar?

So, in summary, bolters have their uses and their limitations. Combat shotguns have their uses and limitations. How do you want your gang to play and what do you want your Leader's role to be within that playstyle?

Personally I've found Goliath to be a great short range shooting gang that like to mix it up within 12" to melee range (With some heavy support) and have had great success playing that way.

Your mileage may vary.

 

[Stompzilla]

I once won a ZM game without my boss even firing a shot. I managed to position him in such a way that no matter who won the initiative next turn he was going to be able to move round a corner and hose 4-5 Orlocks with Firestorm, whilst the rest of the gang were stomping up the middle of the board.

Doing a quick mental calculation on the chances of winning and how much damage his gang was likely to take in the short term, even if he pulled something out of the bag, the Orlocks bottled and legged it. Good times.

This is a game of maneuver - which is something which is actually in your control, not a game of, on paper, firepower which ultimately comes down to a small number of very variable of often swingy dice rolls. In my experience the gang that maneuvers the best and puts their opponent in a position where they have to make tough decisions is the one that comes out on top the vast majority of the time.

 

[Psyan]

I honestly do see both sides of the Combat Shotgun vs Boltgun discussion. The extra 12" in range is a really big deal, but so is having a template and a better ammo roll. I tend to lean in favor of balancing it so that I have one Combat Shotgun for every two Boltguns or Plasma Guns.
Also, Firestorm ammo is either overpowered or undercosted. I'm probably going to knock it down to S4 in our upcoming campaign.
In this upcoming campaign, I'm also going to have a VS Augmek with a Combat Shotgun and Rad ammo. It's better and cheaper than a Rad Gun and adheres to my "everyone gets irradiated" approach for the gang.

 

[Stompzilla]

Firestorm is limited, so there is that. If you use a lot of it, there is the bullet merchant to mitigate but that's a 75 cred investment and used up a hangar on slot.

I do agree though. Bolters are great. I was just pushing back on the idea that CSs are always inferior and don't have their place.

For my Goliath leader, I wanted him to be in the thick of things, and capable of felling multiple enemies at the same time.

If I was playing Orlock, I'd probably want my leader with a Bolter.

Combat shotguns are especially good in a Goliath gang because they are tough enough, with T4 and cheap 5 cred furnace plates to weather the storm as they get close and their BS4 champs and specialists are ideally suited to grenade launchers with smoke and photon to cover the advance of their poor BS gangers.

Normal shotguns are great too and I'm a big fan of them in almost all circumstances but especially with Goliath. If you do go bullet merchant, then you can easily give them executioner rounds to make their gangers quite deadly.

While we're talking hangars on, the chem dealer is super sweet too. Frenzon Collars for forge born (That eventually get given incendiary grenades), that are always available and can be bought on tic, as well as a half price fixer all rolled into one. Really good hangar on for early campaign play.

 

[Stompzilla]

Regarding filthy builds, an unborn stimmer with paired spud jackers, docs experiment (-1S, +1W), Scar Tissue, infiltrate, a Frenzon Collar, stim Slug Stash and incendiary grenades is an absolute nightmare for your enemy to deal with.

Especially if you pair him with one of your long range, blast throwing Forge Bosses who has the Frenzon activation button. That's a group activation that really puts the pressure on and gets to work on the activation economy, straight away.

Very nasty combo.

 

[Stompzilla]

At the risk of a thread hijack, my filthiest build to date has to be my downtime forge boss.

Stimm slug stash, unborn, docs experiment (-1S, +1W), Scar Tissue, Hip Shooting Web Gun.

When combined with the card, 'Get 'Em!' That's a 16" move and fire web gun that can survive a melta gun to the face in reply.

We play pretty rough and love it.

 

[MrAndersson]

I do agree though. Bolters are great. I was just pushing back on the idea that CSs are always inferior and don't have their place.

I didn't say CSs were always inferior. I said "worse in almost every aspect".

I don't play ZM, but I imagine CSs could be quite useful there. In SM, however, I would never take a CS over a boltgun. Unless it was for thematic reasons, of course, or for variety.

 

[Stompzilla]

I didn't say CSs were always inferior. I said "worse in almost every aspect".

I don't play ZM, but I imagine CSs could be quite useful there. In SM, however, I would never take a CS over a boltgun. Unless it was for thematic reasons, of course, or for variety.

That's your opinion, fine. Without repeating myself, I think I've made the case for why a combat shotgun is sometimes the better choice, even in SM.