Grenade Launcher Rules - Overlooking a rule?

[Matt Parfitt]

Hi All,

Can I confirm that I am not overlooking a rule somewhere with respect to Grenade Launchers in N17.

Is it correct that they can target a space on the board rather than a model, with no modifier to hit?

I recall from previous editions there was a rule (Small Target) that applied a -1 to hit when targeting a space on the board, but cannot find it in the new rules.

If so then is it correct that a Champion (BS 3+) taking an aim action will be able to land a grenade next to any target in heavy cover or even one that is completely out of sight (if close enough to an edge) on a 2+?

In previous editions a BS4 model would be landing a hit on a 4+ (taking into account the modifier and absence of aim action).

If we are playing this correctly have people found this to have an extreme impact on the game?

If facing a gang with two or more grenade launchers I have no idea how you could get close against accurate shooting that essentially ignores cover.

 

[spafe]

I believe you have that right... It's an issue that others have brought up as potentially broken... I'm not honestly sure what the going advice (if any) is on how to address this issue.

 

[Stoof]

Yes, you have it right, with the caveat that the point you are shooting at must be in clear line of sight - no landing a grenade behind a barricade. But you could land it just to the side of it or even, if you're being extra beardy, on its top edge.

Grenade launchers are awesome/broken depending on if I'm the one firing it or being fired at

It does better represent what a grenade launcher actually does rather than the bizarre aim-at-a-person weapon GW thought it should be in old rules.

 

[Kairae]

They’re actually worse/better than that. Provided that you place the impact point basically in B2B with your target you’ll hit your target with ~50% of your misses as it’ll scatter less than 3” away from your target (and that’s before you account for rolling a Hit).

Honestly making GLs -1 to hit at all ranges, Scatter D3+3” and have to pay for Grenades separately would probably still leave them balanced.

 

[Draco]

I am in a group that has house ruled grenade launchers to grenades sold separately from the launcher.

Cover honestly helps with the scattering problem, as scattering in the wrong direction often leads to a total miss or stray shot. Sometimes however, you also get a lucky bounce around the corner...

 

[Matt Parfitt]

Ok, thanks for the feedback, sounds like a known issue with the current rules.

Looking at introducing house rules, does the below seem balanced or does it go too far (i.e. you would not then take a grenade launcher)?

1) Re-introduce small target rule, when targeting a specific point on the battlefield (as opposed to an enemy fighter) you take a -1 modifier to hit.
2) Give the Grenade Launcher the Unwieldy trait (to prevent aimed shots).
3) Cost of Grenade Launcher does not include grenades, which must be purchased separately.

 

[Draco]

1. No. The cool test for not shooting at the closest target already applies to point in space shooting.

2. Absolutely not given the 24 inch max range. If a heavy launcher existed, sure.

3. Already implemented by our group. Any model carrying grenades however need NOT dedicate them exclusively to the launcher however, as grenades are wargear.

 

[Thorgor]

They’re actually worse/better than that. Provided that you place the impact point basically in B2B with your target you’ll hit your target with ~50% of your misses as it’ll scatter less than 3” away from your target (and that’s before you account for rolling a Hit).

Less than 3" away actually only happens 33% of the time (as, if you roll a 1, the shot is lost and the shooter risks exploding instead.)
Hmmm... it may scatter towards the intended target though. Maybe that's where the ~50% comes from?

1. No. The cool test for not shooting at the closest target already applies to point in space shooting.

I disagree. Blast weapons' rules completely bypass the target choice. Targeting an enemy fighter is not even an option. See underhive p58:

When declaring a shot with a Blast weapon, instead of picking an enemy, place the appropriately sized Blast marker (determined by the number in brackets after the trait) so that the central hole is-anywhere within line of sight

It does also mean that a -1 to target a specific point doesn't make sense. Simply give the weapon an additional blanket -1 to hit at all ranges.

I agree that grenade launcher shouldn't be turned into a move-or-fire weapon (to leave free design space for the Missile Launcher if nothing else — plus the one-handed design of the Thumper doesn't make it look unwiedly (even if I have no idea how your are supposed to aim with this thing)). The aforementionned -1 to hit could help solve the Aim problem.
Imo, Special weapons should also be reserved to Leader/Champions/Specialists to help prevent proliferation (and force players to actually make choices, even when they swim in credits.)

3. Already implemented by our group. Any model carrying grenades however need NOT dedicate them exclusively to the launcher however, as grenades are wargear.

I think this last one is a strange choice as it negates the only drawback of getting a grenade launcher (the -1 to hit at short range) and makes the ammo rolls feel wrong (if they come from the same ammo bag, why should throwing grenades put you at a higher risk to run out than shooting them with the launcher?)
I like the way it works in NCE (where launchers come empty and grenades can be used both ways, but you must declare which one before each battle) as it lets players get grenades first and then upgrade to a launcher later.

 

[Kairae]

@Thorgor I was talking loosely.

If it’s On the base it’s any result of a 3 or less + 5/6 Hits.

If it’s immediately adjacent to the base it’s approximately scatters Towards on a 4 or less, and scatters Away on a 2 or less. Because Blast templates only need to just touch (unless I’m missing a rule).

 

[TopsyKretts]

Ok it seems that Grenade launcher is potentially broken, hitting enemies at range with higher probability than most if not all other weapons.

Check out this build:

Leader 145
Furnace Plates
1 Brawn/Ferocity/Leadership skill
Grenade Launcher (with frag and krak grenades) 55

Champion 110
Furnace Plates
1 Brawn/Ferocity skill
Grenade Launcher (with frag and krak grenades) 55

Champion 110
Furnace Plates
1 Brawn/Ferocity skill
Grenade Launcher (with frag and krak grenades) 55

Ganger 60
Grenade Launcher (with frag and krak grenades) 55
(one ganger can have a Special Weapon from start)


Ganger 60
Grenade Launcher (with frag and krak grenades) 55
(Buy the Grenade Launcher after first game)

Ganger 60
Grenade Launcher (with frag and krak grenades) 55
(Buy the Grenade Launcher after first game)

Ganger 60
Grenade Launcher (with frag and krak grenades) 55
(Buy the Grenade Launcher after first game)

Credits after first game: 10

During the first game, you will have 3 gangers without any weapons. Use them as body guards for your grenade launchers. If any survive the first game, you can buy grenade launchers for them with the rest of your initial money. What you end up with after the first game is:

1 grenade launcher hits on 3+ (ignoring cover, high chance of hitting even if the hit roll failed), T4, W2
2 grenade launchers hit on 4+(ignoring cover, high chance of hitting even if the hit roll failed), T4 W2
4 grenade launchers hit on 4+(ignoring cover, high chance of hitting even if the hit roll failed), T4 W1

If for some reason enemy is within short range (giving -1 modifier to the hit roll), just charge them, WS 3+ or 4+, S4 and A 4/3/2. Or simply move away from them, bringing them outside the 6" short range.

 

[timdp]

Or start with Van Saars
Leader w GL: 165
Champ. w GL: 160
Champ. w GL: 160
Ganger w GL: 110
Ganger w/o GL: 55
Ganger w/o GL: 55
Ganger w/o GL: 55
= 760 points
Buy 3 GL after first game =165
Total spent so far 925
Give leader and Champions the Fast Shot skill (shoot twice if not moving)
Add the following Leader/Champion tactics cards: Blazing Fury (shoot twice for one turn), Reaction Fire (free overwatch shot) and Crossfire (autohits target who has been targeted this turn). Use cards early in the game, if not on the first turn.

Fast Shot plus Blazing Fury = four shots if not moving!

Assuming you make a reasonable amount of income after the first game, you will have enough to buy a fifth ganger w GL and possibly another ganger, who will get his GL after the second game.

Game 2 starts with:
1 grenade launcher hits on 2+ (ignoring cover, high chance of hitting even if the hit roll failed), T3, W2
2 grenade launchers hit on 3+ (ignoring cover, high chance of hitting even if the hit roll failed), T3 W2
5 grenade launchers hit on 4+ (ignoring cover, high chance of hitting even if the hit roll failed), T3 W1

Target gangers in the open with krak grenades and gangers in cover or in groups with frags and let the grenades rain. Don't think any starter gang could stand up to this kind of firepower.

I doubt that GW ever even considered that people might load up on the most undercosted weapon in the game. I think Azzabat has it right; import the alternate fig activation and a couple of useful other things in to LRB or NCE. No way a FAQ is going to fix all the problems with this broken game.

 

[Mongooser]

Hi All,

Can I confirm that I am not overlooking a rule somewhere with respect to Grenade Launchers in N17.

Is it correct that they can target a space on the board rather than

The rule that people are often forgetting about when doing this is Targeting priority. If you try to shoot past a model with a grenade launcher then you need to take a cool check because it is further than the closest model

 

[Kairae]

The rule that people are often forgetting about when doing this is Targeting priority. If you try to shoot past a model with a grenade launcher then you need to take a cool check because it is further than the closest model

Unfortunately not. So long as the target they declare is easier to hit:

"Target Priority.
If a fighter making a ranged attack can see more than one enemy, they must target the closest one by default – after all, they represent the most obvious threat. If the fighter wishes to target a more distant enemy, they must make a Target Priority test. Make a Cool check for the fighter. If
the check is passed proceed as normal. If it is not passed, the attacker's nerve fails and they target the nearest enemy fighter instead.
There is a exception to this rule. If the target that is declared is easier to hit than all of the closer visible enemy fighters (ie, the required hit roll is lower because of hit modifiers), the Target Priority test does not need to be made."

 

[Stoof]

The rule that people are often forgetting about when doing this is Targeting priority. If you try to shoot past a model with a grenade launcher then you need to take a cool check because it is further than the closest model

Target priority does not apply to blast weapons. They completely bypass the normal targeting procedure as you cannot actually target an enemy fighter directly with one: "place the appropriately sized blast marker... so that the central hole is anywhere in line of sight".

Position of enemy models is irrelevant, as you are not shooting at them - your target is the ground beside or near them.

 

[TopsyKretts]

I doubt that GW ever even considered that people might load up on the most undercosted weapon in the game. I think Azzabat has it right; import the alternate fig activation and a couple of useful other things in to LRB or NCE. No way a FAQ is going to fix all the problems with this broken game.

I fear that you're right. With all the mess and now this incredible unbalance, they would have to reword gang creation and house lists as well as re-release the Trading Post and weapon costs.

They may have to make a 2nd edition of the N17 rulebook and several parts in Gang War 1. And add Gang War 2 on top of that, let's be honest, none of these issues are going to be resolved in the next book, so Gang War 2 is probably gonna need a future fix even before its release.

Is GW even gonna be capable to do this? Or just continue in its track, then leave the game broken and let the community sort it out with a new community edition over the next decade?

There have been some great ideas to fix this, scatter 3" + D3" is one. I also think no Gangers should be able to have Special Weapons (unless promoted to Champion or something). You can already have minimum 3 special/heavy weapons in the gang already, do Necromunda require more? Doesn't make them very special.

 

[Kairae]

Target priority does not apply to blast weapons. They completely bypass the normal targeting procedure as you cannot actually target an enemy fighter directly with one: "place the appropriately sized blast marker... so that the central hole is anywhere in line of sight".

Position of enemy models is irrelevant, as you are not shooting at them - your target is the ground beside or near them.

That’s BS. Nowhere in the target priority rules does it say that. It’s literally the most ‘I want my GLs to be broken so nah nah nah’ interpretation you can make.

It’s only reasonable to continue to apply the Target Priority Rules: which always allow you to take an easier shot than a harder shot anyway. So feel free to continue abusing GLs UNLESS there’s a Juve standing in the open at 7” Away.

 

[Draco]

Targeting priority rules require two enemies that are threats. Given the evade ability and the fact that distance can't be pre measured, the closest model in line of sight is still a point in line of sight, which must be chosen.

 

[Kairae]

Targeting priority rules require two enemies that are threats. Given the evade ability and the fact that distance can't be pre measured, the closest model in line of sight is still a point in line of sight, which must be chosen.

UNLESS the point you choose is easier to hit. Which is the issue with GLs: with the exception of fighters in the open any random point on the table is going to be easier to hit.

The easiest way to get around this is to:

• D3+3 for Scatter,
• -1 for shooting at a point on the table rather than a model,
• Grenades have a SR = Sx2. Grenades are +1 to hit in SR.

 

[Stoof]

Nowhere in the target priority rules does it say that.
...
It’s only reasonable to continue to apply the Target Priority Rules

It doesn't say it in the target priotity rules because GL's don't follow the target priority rules. The priority rules deal with picking and shooting at enemy fighters. The description for blast weapons says you do not pick an enemy fighter - "when declaring a shot with a blast weapon, instead of picking and enemy..."

If you are not picking an enemy fighter to shoot at, why would the position of an enemy fighter matter?

I agree that is it broken, and yes, it would be entirely reasonable to continue to apply target priority. I even fully expect it to be corrected against my interpretation above at some point (be it official FAQ or a Community Edition), because grenade launchers are broken. Undoubtedly. But until that point, the rules as written say you can fire a grenade launcher "anywhere in line of sight".

 

[Thorgor]

@Stoof is right.

Blast weapons cannot target an enemy fighter to begin with, so there is no way to target the closest one. They entirely bypass the target selection process, which includes the target priority rule. This is one of the many reasons they are OP (which, btw, is a bad thing).