Grenade Launcher Rules - Overlooking a rule?
- Thread starter Matt Parfitt
- Start date
Seems clear enough to me. The rules tell you not to pick an enemy and to simply pick a point within line of sight. If you can't pick an enemy, then you can't pick the closest one and there is no way to apply the target priority rule. Template weapons work the same way by the way.
They could have added a requirement for the template to touch the closest enemy's base (and that could be added as an house rule), but they didn't.
How do you think it's supposed to work?
With N17 rulebook.. something being clear should be a cause of great halpiness!
It is clear but it seems madness that it's what was intended? RAW is pretty simple to decipher but as said is bonkers broken, adding template must hit nearest fighter (not necessarily centred on..) and targeting otherwise subject to the normal cool check seems much more sensible. Not played alternate costs etc to judge that.
It's got to the point i feel like if my Escher can take out my mates GL I've won but if it's able to get off more than 1 or 2 shots I've lost. Over simplified for effect but it's a weapon with very stupid rules imo.
It is clear but it seems madness that it's what was intended? RAW is pretty simple to decipher but as said is bonkers broken, adding template must hit nearest fighter (not necessarily centred on..) and targeting otherwise subject to the normal cool check seems much more sensible. Not played alternate costs etc to judge that.
It's got to the point i feel like if my Escher can take out my mates GL I've won but if it's able to get off more than 1 or 2 shots I've lost. Over simplified for effect but it's a weapon with very stupid rules imo.
That there's a requirement to touch the closest enemy's base. It allows you to fulfill the requirements of both rules and, more importantly, meets the intent of the Target Priority rule (you can't just ignore threats to fire at the most optimal target).
That would help to fix it. If there's a little group of enemies, you can still place the blast marker for maximum impact so long as the nearest target is hit. Shooting at a group further away would require a cool check. It would be a useful house rule to have and I think I'll propose we use it in our campaign from now on.
But alas, this is one of those rare N17 cases where the written rule is actually clear. Broken as hell, but clear.
But alas, this is one of those rare N17 cases where the written rule is actually clear. Broken as hell, but clear.
I love how a small discussion here makes something better than what GW puts out in print.
-blast must touch the nearest target (unless cool check passed)
-scatter 3"+D3"
-static negative modifier to long range?
I would also strongly advocate:
-No special weapons for gangers. Not before first game, not after first game, not ever! Did anybody think "wow, I hope all gangers can have special weapons in the new Necromunda"?
-blast must touch the nearest target (unless cool check passed)
-scatter 3"+D3"
-static negative modifier to long range?
I would also strongly advocate:
-No special weapons for gangers. Not before first game, not after first game, not ever! Did anybody think "wow, I hope all gangers can have special weapons in the new Necromunda"?
I will not go for a built in negative to hit, but a -1 to hit if the target is not a miniature would be a good balance. (only point not to target a miniature is try to hit several at once or bypass cover so should be penalized)
Not only for the grenade launcher but for all blast weapons. 3"+d3 scatter seems perfect for me, if you miss your BS roll should not have so big chance of hitting anyway as in the rulebook scatter rules.
Also I am not a fan of removing special weapons from ganger, because several gangs have CC oriented Champions.
A limit in the total number of special/heavy weapons could work. Maybe the same as limit as champions. 2 special/heavy max at gang creation and 1 extra for each full 10 reputation points in campaign.
Not only for the grenade launcher but for all blast weapons. 3"+d3 scatter seems perfect for me, if you miss your BS roll should not have so big chance of hitting anyway as in the rulebook scatter rules.
Also I am not a fan of removing special weapons from ganger, because several gangs have CC oriented Champions.
A limit in the total number of special/heavy weapons could work. Maybe the same as limit as champions. 2 special/heavy max at gang creation and 1 extra for each full 10 reputation points in campaign.
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This addition would help with the targeting priority issue, but does not help the fact that the weapon is still grossly under costed. 55/65 points PLUS the grenades cost of 75 =130/140 points would be my suggested MINIMUM possible cost. Would want to playtest at those points for a while, although I think the ammo flexibility (frag/krak) would warrant costs going slightly higher, perhaps as high as 150/160.
Remember that any weapon or piece of equipment that is an "auto take" item is probably under costed. Under costed items need to be bumped up until they are no longer "auto take". When it hard to decide which of two item to take, the costs are probably right. In N17 the trade off between identically pointed autoguns and las guns (excluding 5 point Escher las guns) seems pretty good. Even with 5 point Escher las guns I'll still likely take one autogun for an Escher gang because of the rapid fire possibilities.
Currently the GL is an auto take weapon compared to the plasma gun. What point cost does it need to be before its no longer an auto take weapon?
How many here would take a melta gun over a plasma gun in 3D Necromunda17? To me the range of the plasma gun far outweighs the strength/AP/Dam/ammo stats of the melta gun. Would need to compare with the flamer and grenade launcher costs to see if the melta gun needs to drop or the plasma gun needs to go up.
/points costs design rant...
Bloody brilliant!
I agree in general, but I think it is acceptable to have some weapons that simply does not follow this rule. Like Meltagun or Lascannon, obviously inferior weapons compared to others in their class. Still they have some unique attributes which just sets them appart for those who are specially interested in just that. Like a meltagun, sure it is a worse option than plasma and won't be see much, but is more like an interesting choice for flavor and that over-the-top killyness that would be fun to take just because it's possible. Same with las cannon really.How many here would take a melta gun over a plasma gun in 3D Necromunda17? To me the range of the plasma gun far outweighs the strength/AP/Dam/ammo stats of the melta gun. Would need to compare with the flamer and grenade launcher costs to see if the melta gun needs to drop or the plasma gun needs to go up.
/points costs design rant...
Well, a Blast weapon cannot target a miniature to begin with so...
Do you mean there should be a penaly to place the Blast template so that its center doesn't coincide with the one of a miniature's base? Or should the center of the template being anywhere on the miniature's base be enough?
What about Template weapons? Should there be a penalty if the template is not centered on a miniature's base? (since they don't roll to hit, it would have to be something else)
Hitting several minis at once and bypassing cover is kinda the points of the Blast and Template traits so I don't think it should be penalized. Credit cost should be adjusted to account for it though.
There is, however, another problem about grenades that hasn't been mentionned yet: walls. They stop scattering. If you place the template's center in contact with a wall, there is roughly a 50% chance it will stay in place no matter what is rolled for the D6. This become a big problem when your intented target is 1.5" away of the wall, as the grenade will either stay in place or scatter towards the target (with a very good chance to hit it unless a 5 or more is rolled). And don't get me started about corners. It may not be as big a problem in SM as it is in ZM though.
One thing I considered with scatter because of the weird hitting impossible targets (though I can headthunk that it's the grenade bouncing around before detonation or somesuch).
Rather than arbitrarily moving the template in place, draw LOS to new location instead. If possible to do so continue as before but if LOS cannot be drawn to the scatter location, you instead work along the LOS and hit the first blocking obstruction instead.
Have to admit I've not sat down and tested it even thought through new weirdness that could occur.
Rather than arbitrarily moving the template in place, draw LOS to new location instead. If possible to do so continue as before but if LOS cannot be drawn to the scatter location, you instead work along the LOS and hit the first blocking obstruction instead.
Have to admit I've not sat down and tested it even thought through new weirdness that could occur.
Of course hitting several minis are the point fo blast weapons, but hitting the exact spot where do you maximize the effect of your blast should be more difficult than targeting for a bigger target and expect to hit others nearby. Also make the weapon follow the same rules so do not appears side effect of not considering how a special rule works. Even with a -1 to hit a place near cover would be better than targting a model in heavy cover.
For template weapons I do not see as much a problem because they have a very short range so is a quite built-in limitation. However, other rulebooks force to align the center line of the template with a targer but as I said is probably not needed here.
About walls you are right, the rule make to reliable hitting a target near a wall. Could a solution forcing a new scatter roll (both direction and distance) if the blast center reach a wall. Or simply make a new ramdom direction and scatter the remaining distance.
For template weapons I do not see as much a problem because they have a very short range so is a quite built-in limitation. However, other rulebooks force to align the center line of the template with a targer but as I said is probably not needed here.
About walls you are right, the rule make to reliable hitting a target near a wall. Could a solution forcing a new scatter roll (both direction and distance) if the blast center reach a wall. Or simply make a new ramdom direction and scatter the remaining distance.
So why not adjust the melta gun point cost to the point where they become a viable choice?
There IS a point value where that happens. 75 points might still be a little high, so what about 50 points, allowing you to buy two of them for the price of a plasma gun? Yeah, possibly a little low, so now you have narrowed the price point to between 50 and 75 points. 60? 65? Probably somewhere around there would work. Playtest it a bit (with the intent to break the rule system) and you should be getting close to a good point value.
Side note: I think the plasma and melta gun points numbers were just thrown out there (wild guess) for the initial game release and are likely to change as more weapons are added to the game.
Basically if Blast weapons never practically get affected by cover (which is what RAW seems to say) they're too accurate. Even with a D3+3 Scatter mechanic, HITs add a 5/36 chance reroll to Hit for every miss. If you compare a Ganger with a Bolter and a Ganger with a Grenade Launcher wanting to hit a model in Full Cover (-2 to Hit) without aiming at ~18" with a flat -1 to hit for GLs.
Bolter hits on a 6, or ~17%.
Grenade hits on a 5 or 6 and also hits on a Hit (that isn't a Dud). 2/6+4/6*1/6*5/6 = 77/216 = ~36%
So even with a flat -1 to hit a GL is significantly better, at range, at hitting a model in Full Cover, is slightly better at hitting a model in Partial Cover, worse at hitting a model in the open and is the only 24" ranged weapon capable of hitting a target that is fully obscured.
Inside 12" a Boltgun is almost as good but still can't hit multiple models or a target that is fully obscured.
That has the effect of making things that are extremely powerful extremely rare. I think GLs should be more common (ie cheaper) than Plasma Guns. But that requires toning down their effect. The price point I'd like GLs to be at is 55pts + Grenades (which puts a Frag only GL at the same price point as a Combi-Needler).
"Walls" aren't a thing in SM RAW (unless you deliberately define something as being a wall), so at the moment nothing stops the scatter in SM.
In ZM I have no issues with walls increasing the accuracy of Grenade Launchers / Grenades. ZM is supposed to be close ranged and brutal. The primary beneficiary of this is Grenades not GLs (GLs are easier to 'get a hold of' in ZM where most fighting happens in a positive range band).
Where I think the ideal balancing point is that you want Heavy Stubbers in your gang for 3D and Templates/Grenades in your gang for ZM and GLs strike a good at both but (with a decent selection of Grenades) extremely expensive. I think the TTS Home Rules of 160pt Frag, Krak, Smoke GLs is about right (80pts + Grenades) for RAW but probably still a touch undercosted given how scatter works.
If you're going with 3"+D3" scatter you need to add a Short Range to Grenades with a +1 to hit, say Sx1.5. This just mitigates the risk of Grenades scattering back in on the thrower. And I don't think anybody would really argue Grenades are OP at the moment.
Agree. Plasma Gun is probably about right at 100pts if it didn't have +2 to hit at Short for LP. HP could do with getting either Blast or add Rapid Fire on as well. I think a 65pt Melta is probably actually about right: I'd consider it for laughs / Sabotage at that point. But a GL with Krak is probably a better answer
As far as plasma gun balance, the "click" action card does a very good job of neutralizing a plasma gunner.
Boltguns can indeed hit multiple models given rapid fire and bad grouping by an opponent.
Also, it is not THAT beardy to take advantage of terrain with frag grenades. Claim the spire goliath vs goliath fights are interesting with the prevalence of knockback weapons.
My major concern at the moment is juves with autogun x1 and autopistol x 2 are getting ubiquitous in our campaign. A single guided ballistic advance is making that loadout dangerous when the juves have 4+ BS.
Boltguns can indeed hit multiple models given rapid fire and bad grouping by an opponent.
Also, it is not THAT beardy to take advantage of terrain with frag grenades. Claim the spire goliath vs goliath fights are interesting with the prevalence of knockback weapons.
My major concern at the moment is juves with autogun x1 and autopistol x 2 are getting ubiquitous in our campaign. A single guided ballistic advance is making that loadout dangerous when the juves have 4+ BS.
Where is it from? I just reread the Blast markers rules and unless I missed something the HIT symbol behaves exactly as the arrow symbol except for the 1/36 chance of misfire.
Well, this is obviously an oversight. Grenades aren't gonna just magically go through solid objects.
Juves with basic weapons?
Suggestions for toning down the GL?
TTS Home Rules?
Agree. Plasma Gun is probably about right at 100pts if it didn't have +2 to hit at Short for LP. HP could do with getting either Blast or add Rapid Fire on as well. I think a 65pt Melta is probably actually about right: I'd consider it for laughs / Sabotage at that point. But a GL with Krak is probably a better answer
If the GL with frag and krak is is 140 points to the melta's 65 points, is the GL still the answer? If so, its still priced too low...
BTW Great discussion guys! (Hope GW is reading it...
)Juves with Autoguns? Or do you mean throwaway gangers? And yeah, *gun + 2 x Autopistol does seem to be the optimal Ganger build (I tend to Lasgun + Autopistol, but that's due Escher). Particularly since Autopistols are cheaper than most CC weapons (which just seems dull). I'd limit 'Twin Guns Blazing' to fighters without a Special/Basic/Heavy weapon (I'm assuming that we think the 'ideal' ganger should be *gun, *pistol, FIghting Knife/Club?) and either reduce all CC weapons in cost by 5pts (except Clubs) or increase Autopistols by 5.
Re: Plasma Guns. Sure, but I think it's bad design to rely on Tactics as a balancing point given how relatively rare Tactics are. At 100 creds they're not nearly as bad a GLs but compared to a Combi-Needler (which feels about right) they seem undercosted and could bear to either lose the +2 to hit or gain ~30creds in cost.
I don't think it's THAT beardy to take advantage of terrain with frag grenades. I just think it's too easy to do it at range with a GL (Grenades OTOH are about right). I think -1 to hit and change scatter would fix it. It'd still be good, interesting and worth taking but less 'you're gimping yourself by not taking a GL / as many GLs as possible'.
Re: Plasma Guns. Sure, but I think it's bad design to rely on Tactics as a balancing point given how relatively rare Tactics are. At 100 creds they're not nearly as bad a GLs but compared to a Combi-Needler (which feels about right) they seem undercosted and could bear to either lose the +2 to hit or gain ~30creds in cost.
I don't think it's THAT beardy to take advantage of terrain with frag grenades. I just think it's too easy to do it at range with a GL (Grenades OTOH are about right). I think -1 to hit and change scatter would fix it. It'd still be good, interesting and worth taking but less 'you're gimping yourself by not taking a GL / as many GLs as possible'.
Hmmm will need to reread the Blast rules (again) I thought Hits were hits. In which case Scatter of D3+3 might be enough.
Edit: yeah, I was wrong. That makes it better. D3+3 is probably enough then, it means that if you miss the point you were aiming at you can't ever hit it.
In SM thought they don't need to go through solid objects*, they can go over them. That being said if it was logically impossible for the grenades to scatter over the intervening terrain then I'd probably stop them when they hit it (ie 2 people within the same building and the grenade scatters outside, and there's no exits that make sense). Overall though, scatter in SM is one of those things that you really need to just be reasonable about and either go with what's cool or dice for it if there's a disagreement.
*Note though, that 'punching through' solid objects is explicitly called out as a reason for Scatter
"Note that the marker can scatter out of range or line of sight, representing a ricochet or the shot blasting clean through a wall."
Edit: yeah, I was wrong. That makes it better. D3+3 is probably enough then, it means that if you miss the point you were aiming at you can't ever hit it.
In SM thought they don't need to go through solid objects*, they can go over them. That being said if it was logically impossible for the grenades to scatter over the intervening terrain then I'd probably stop them when they hit it (ie 2 people within the same building and the grenade scatters outside, and there's no exits that make sense). Overall though, scatter in SM is one of those things that you really need to just be reasonable about and either go with what's cool or dice for it if there's a disagreement.
*Note though, that 'punching through' solid objects is explicitly called out as a reason for Scatter
"Note that the marker can scatter out of range or line of sight, representing a ricochet or the shot blasting clean through a wall."
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