N17 Grenade Launcher Rules - Overlooking a rule?

wepvwepv

Juve
Apr 14, 2018
10
4
3
Philadelphia, PA, USA
That's all it does. If a weapon needs to use those rules, there is no reason not to give it the Grenade trait. Therefore, weapon without this trait don't use those rules.
So then why did they mention Grenade Launchers at all? The make it a point to specify that you can reload grenade launchers...which if they didn't use grenade rules wouldn't be needed, as you can reload any weapon unless it has scarce or limited. They took the time to spell out how grenade launchers differ from grenades which implies they don't differ from grenades for some of the rules. The logical step is that they use the grenade rules as written except where specified, since this is a game that lists general rules and then exceptions. The exceptions in this case are being allowed to reload, slightly different ammo check numbers, and different ranges.
 
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wepvwepv

Juve
Apr 14, 2018
10
4
3
Philadelphia, PA, USA
I just find all of this talk about how to re-balance grenade launchers with price changes or altering how the basic rules for blast weapons work seems needless when it might just be that because of some poor choices in their formatting of the rules, and maybe a poor choice to exclude a keyword on an ammo type because they assumed we would get it, that we were all just playing them incorrectly.
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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So then why did they mention Grenade Launchers at all?
Presumably, to avoid this very confusion. They justifiy why the rules for grenades do not apply to grenade launcher ammunition, since it's treated as ammo and not grenades.

Again, note that those rules are from the core rulebook and that in this book the prices for the 'nade launcher and the grenades actually make sense (launcher (with frag and krak) is 140c, frag is 15c and krak is 25c). Gang War 1 is where everything went south.

Also, let's look more closely at what those rules do:
  1. Grenades are treated as a special type of ranged weapon
  2. Grenades do not have a Short range
  3. Their long range is determined by multiplying fighter's Strength by 3
  4. The Firepower dice is not rolled when attacking with a grenade. Instead, after the attack has been resolved, an Ammo check is made automatically
  5. Grenades cannot be reloaded
When 1, 2, 3 and 5 obviously don't apply to grenade launchers, why would you assume 4 does?
 
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wepvwepv

Juve
Apr 14, 2018
10
4
3
Philadelphia, PA, USA
Because 2 & 3 are covered by the weapon profile for grenade launcher (or more specifically, non grenade launcher grenades need to spell out what their ranged band means in their profile) and 1 is just wording saying "hey, here are a bunch of rules for grenades."

4 & 5 are not covered by the weapon range bands in their profiles, with 4 applying to both and 5 spelling out that grenade launchers ignore the last part.

I just don't understand why people want to assume this is really complicated and that the rules for the weapon are totally broken, when if you just assume the simpler mistake on GW's part was not applying the grenade keyword to GL ammo and formatting the wording a little clearer, the weapon isn't broken at all, and is a useful tool in some games for some gangs but not something you want to spam (which is where most weapons should fall ideally)
 

TopsyKretts

Gang Hero
Dec 29, 2017
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Kristiansand
Because 2 & 3 are covered by the weapon profile for grenade launcher (or more specifically, non grenade launcher grenades need to spell out what their ranged band means in their profile) and 1 is just wording saying "hey, here are a bunch of rules for grenades."

4 & 5 are not covered by the weapon range bands in their profiles, with 4 applying to both and 5 spelling out that grenade launchers ignore the last part.

I just don't understand why people want to assume this is really complicated and that the rules for the weapon are totally broken, when if you just assume the simpler mistake on GW's part was not applying the grenade keyword to GL ammo and formatting the wording a little clearer, the weapon isn't broken at all, and is a useful tool in some games for some gangs but not something you want to spam (which is where most weapons should fall ideally)
What is the consequences of your suggestion, grenade launcher becomes a one-shot weapon?
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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I just don't understand why people want to assume this is really complicated and that the rules for the weapon are totally broken
I assume it's very simple and that both the grenade launcher and grenades were somewhat adequately priced in Underhive.
I think it's a simpler solution than assuming rules that are obviously written with hand-thrown grenades in mind, and are only referenced by a Trait that only appear on Grenades should also apply to something else, especially when they went out of their way to spell out grenade launcher ammo works differently.

Anyway, most problems people have with the 'nade launcher are related to the Blast trait (mainly because it makes the weapon ignore cover and target priority), but adding Grenade to all Blast weapons doesn't do much to fix that.

What is the consequences of your suggestion, grenade launcher becomes a one-shot weapon?
Not exactly, but it would go from 14% to 83% chance to go Out of Ammo on each shot (with frag and krak at least, special ammo is a bit more forgiving). And you would still be able to try and reload it (with a whopping 17% chance of success).
 

Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
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My opinion is ever shifting on this. Let's assume I was wrong in my interpretation, and the Grenade rules don't apply to launchers. I see one of two things happening here:

1) The cost was bungled in GW1.
2) The use of blast weapons in Sector Mechanicus should be different, but that was not fully considered when GW1 was written.

Of those, option 1 makes more sense and is the easiest to fix. Grenade launchers are less good in an open 3d battlefield, but in my opinion the cost reduction was too extreme.

Having played a fair bit of Sector Mech. games with my 2 grenade launcher toting Goliaths against a variety of gangs, I can conclude from my experience grenade launchers do a lot of pinning with frag but not a lot of wounding. When I use krak they are pretty solid at sniping lone enemies, champions and leaders included. Compared to the table domination of a well placed Orlock heavy stubbers with munitioneer, they should not cost 140, but still more than 55/65. I have not seen plasma guns, flamers or metaguns in use, but grenade launchers are certainly better than Chem throwers.

Someone mentioned removing krak rounds from grenade launchers, which feels just right to me. Krak, would be common at the trade post 45 creds.
 

wepvwepv

Juve
Apr 14, 2018
10
4
3
Philadelphia, PA, USA
especially when they went out of their way to spell out grenade launcher ammo works differently.
But that's the point. If they didn't mention grenade launchers at all in the grenade rules, I would agree with you. The way you are reading the rules, grenade launchers work the same with or without that last paragraph of rules under grenades. It's a paragraph telling us that grenade launcher's don't follow the ammo rules of grenades... but if grenade launchers dont follow ANY of the rules of grenades, why is it included? What purpose does that paragraph serve? I find it easier to believe that someone forgot to add a keyword to grenade ammo types and that last paragraph actually need to exist because it's a relevant difference to GLs vs Thrown 'nades then it is to believe that they would write a needless paragraph of rules txt, especially when if you use grenade launchers as I am suggesting, they are priced pretty much perfectly as very powerful single shot weapons that you can take various routes to make even better (ammo crates, hangers-on, savant skills, using special ammo types with better ammo checks).
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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if grenade launchers dont follow ANY of the rules of grenades, why is it included? What purpose does that paragraph serve?
I should admittedly have done that way earlier, but I checked my actual rulebook and I can't find said paragraph on page 59. Where did you get those rules from? (I assume it has to do with a certain redditor...)

N17_Grenade.png
 

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cronevald

Gang Champion
Jun 5, 2016
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I should admittedly have done that way earlier, but I checked my actual rulebook and I can't find said paragraph on page 59. Where did you get those rules from? (I assume it has to do with a certain redditor...)
My guess is that it's paraphrasing the Grenade Launcher question on page 4 of the FAQ where it states that Grenade Launchers do not use the ammo rules for Grenades.
 
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wepvwepv

Juve
Apr 14, 2018
10
4
3
Philadelphia, PA, USA
That's my bad. I only use the compiled rules since the actual rule book is so poorly laid out and was made obsolete when they started releasing Gang War books that contradicted it.

I'm still going to play GL the way I've stated, tho. It's solved every problem that people have complained about without having to alter any costs or do anything, really, other then apply the grenade rules to grenade launchers. It's been the easiest rule adjustment we have made for either of our campaigns and I think the proof of balance is that some people use grenade launchers and some don't. No one feels like they are giving up anything by not using them, and the people who use them feel like the price they pay for what they do is fair.
 
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SirMattius

Ganger
Feb 27, 2014
189
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28
That's my bad. I only use the compiled rules since the actual rule book is so poorly laid out and was made obsolete when they started releasing Gang War books that contradicted it.

I'm still going to play GL the way I've stated, tho. It's solved every problem that people have complained about without having to alter any costs or do anything, really, other then apply the grenade rules to grenade launchers. It's been the easiest rule adjustment we have made for either of our campaigns and I think the proof of balance is that some people use grenade launchers and some don't. No one feels like they are giving up anything by not using them, and the people who use them feel like the price they pay for what they do is fair.
Would that mean that once a failed ammo check happens the launcher is done?
 

Jacob Dryearth

Gang Hero
Sep 6, 2016
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Yeah I was originally quoting the compiled rules, now where does that paragraph come from? That's what I get for trusting Internet...
 

Long_John_Silver

New Member
Jun 7, 2018
6
1
3
Athens, Ohio, USA
Has anyone here ever fired a grenade launcher? They sort of lob the grenade through a relatively loose fitting tube, rather than fire it through a rifled barrel. They are inherently inaccurate, but make up for it with the blast. I would suggest giving S -1 and L -2 modifiers. This would still make Frag and various smoke/gas grenades still relatively effective and the Krak grenade much less effective.

I also think we could alter the rule:

"If the Scatter dice rolls a Hit, and the D6 rolls a 1,
something has gone wrong, roll the D6 again. On a 1,
centre the Blast marker over the attacking model. On a 2-
6, the shot is a dud and the attack ends."

We could make it happen half of the time, so on a 1, 2, or 3 something has gone wrong. We can assume that this is because the gangs are getting both less reliable launchers and grenades that did not pass quality control to be sent to the IG.