N18 GSC mind control questions

[munsen1]

Our Genestealer cult player has started using mind control, leading me to read the rule to make sure I understand how it effects me, and have a couple of questions:

1. Does GSC version of the rule require LOS? I cannot find the original rules to check, but I've found 2 versions online, one which requires psyker to have LOS to target and one which didn't.

2. Can the player using the power change my models facing when attacking? If not, can I limit the effect of it by keeping fighters out of each other's firing arc. If the can, do they go back to original facing afterwards, or can they combine this with charging to get rear arc charges that I cannot avoid?

3. The rule says that target makes a shoot action, and the psyker chooses who is targeted. Are cool checks required if target isn't closest? Which player chooses what weapon is fired if the target has 2 ranged weapons?

 

[Aulenback]

For reference, from The Book Of Ruin, this looks to be the most recently published version of Mind Control available as part of the GSC psychic powers:

4. Telepathy – Mind Control (Basic): Twitching and spasming under the control of the Adept, an enemy fighter is forced to slowly raise their weapon and take aim upon one of heir friends. Select an enemy fighter that is within 9" of the Adept. That fighter immediately makes a Shoot (Basic) action, even if they have already activated this round, targeting an eligible fighter from their gang, chosen by the Genestealer Cults player.

So as written:
* it does not require Line of Sight between the GSC psyker and the target.
* It does require Line of Sight between the target and the fighter they are shooting at ("eligible").
* It does not make any allowance for changing the facing of the target.
* It does not at all clarify whether Cool checks are required to shoot past a closer opposing fighter, or if Cool checks are required to shoot past a closer friendly fighter. [Though I would guess not, given the way it is phrased.]
* It does not say who gets to choose the weapon used if the target is carrying more than one firearm. It does allow for the use of grenades, as it simply says a Shoot action, rather than a type of weapon. It would allow the shooting of an Unwieldly weapon only if the target has a suspensor for it.

 

[munsen1]

Thanks for responding. That cleared up about must of my questions.

Is the some other clarification in the rules which I had missed for who chooses the weapon. We're currently assuming the genestealer player, but they've been playing other parts of the role wrong so I'm not certain.

 

[HugeSamples]

I feel this is one of those powers that looks good at first glance, but when you start to factor in the restrictions it becomes less appealing.

I forget, are genestealers allowed to go straight to outcast powers? If so, do that and skip their feeble wyrd power table .

 

[Scabs]

GSC is NOT a strong gang. It don't even get Genestealers! It has five-ish things going for it:
1) Psyker with Mind Control (which means forgoing a fighting Leader).
2) Abberants (which are only 'aight).
3) Cunning skill (can you say, "Blasting Charge"?).
4) Third Arm?
5) Lot's of 40K models to choose from (I got a million of'em!).

Neutering Mind Control is not really necessary.

 

[munsen1]

Our GSC player tends to win a lot due to very hard to kill characters with familiars, and crazy good cool meaning these characters never run.

Everything else in the list trades well enough that we're both at bottle checks about the same time.

 

[Scabs]

I forgot about Familiars. The most mispriced Exotic Pets (100 creds would be generous). We don't use more than one. The equivalent's in Hive Secundus are 70 creds and only allow for a re-roll of armor saves.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Mind Control was updated and now requires LoS.

1. Mind Control (Basic), Continuous Effect: Choose a single enemy fighter that is both within 9" and line of sight of this fighter. That fighter immediately makes a Shoot (Basic) action, even if they have already activated this round, targeting an eligible fighter from their gang, chosen by this fighter.

It's been consistently requiring LoS after N19 Ruin, both in N20-N21 House of Shadows and Outcasts. On the other hand, why is it continuous effect?

 

[spafe]

I cannot check exact wording now, but I dont believe turning a model counts as moving, but is part of the shoot action (you rotate the model to face its target), so I think the mind controller can turn your model (leaving them facing the wrong way for charges or angled armour plates) if there is a viable target behind them, might be wrong though

 

[Aulenback]

I hadn't thought that it did, but someone kindly (on reddit? here? somewhere) pointed out to me that in the N'23 core rule book on page 102, every Activation includes a free turn to face.

CHANGING FACING
Fighters can change their facing during their activation, representing them turning in place, or turning their head from side to side. When a Standing fighter is activated, they may turn to face any direction their controlling player wishes, before making either of their actions. Changing facing in this way does not count as moving, and therefore can be combined with any other action. Players should note, however, that a fighter that changes their facing when Standing and Engaged will normally suffer negative modifiers to any Hit rolls they make. This represents the fighter turning quickly to confront an attacker. Prone fighters, as has been mentioned previously, have no facing. When they stand up, the controlling player can choose in which direction they face.

Now. The Shoot (Basic) action caused by this "spell" isn't an Activation proper, so whether it allows for turning to face is up in the air. RAW no. RAI is questionable.

 

[spafe]

good catch!

 

[Scabs]

"Changing facing in this way does not count as moving, and therefore can be combined with any other action."

Shooting is an Action, NOT an Activation. Changing facing can be combined with shooting.

 

[Aulenback]

Yes, though note the sentence before that one: "When a Standing fighter is activated, they may turn to face any direction their controlling player wishes, before making either of their actions."

It isn't part of the Action, or of any Action. It is part of being Activated, instead. So still questionable for Mind Control, which doesn't give an Activation, it just gives an Action.

Similarly, tactics cards like Ambush Alley, Last Gasp, Reaction Fire, Opening Volley, Swift Justice, Breach and Clear, Fear of Betrayal, Freedom in Death, Vengeance of the Ironhead!, and also the Overwatch (Cunning) skill. If your table allows the free turn for Mind Control, it should also allow a free turn for all of those non-Actication shooting actions as well.

 

[spafe]

Personally I'd give the free turn, but very much unclear what the intent is

 

[TopsyKretts]

Looks clear to me you don't get a free rotation when doing an action outside the normal activation. It would go both ways, as many effects will allow a fighter to intentionally shoot outside an activation too.

 

[spafe]

Looks clear to me you don't get a free rotation when doing an action outside the normal activation. It would go both ways, as many effects will allow a fighter to intentionally shoot outside an activation too.

totally fair, I wouldnt give it to an overwatching fighter. I think I'd give it to mind control because.... its mind control. the fluff driven part of me wants it to work that way, and I'm not the one playing GSC so am not gaining from it

 

[Xisor_of_Karak_Izor]

Looks clear to me you don't get a free rotation when doing an action outside the normal activation. It would go both ways, as many effects will allow a fighter to intentionally shoot outside an activation too.

I was thinking the other direction: it feels clear that some would get turns... though not clear which would and wouldn't. but Like I feel there's a variety of "vibe" afoot here - like big surprising freebies: Freedom in Death, Vengeance of the Ironhead, Mind Control, but others are more things that hinge on exploiting (or being limited by) positioning & planning, and by what sliver of opportunity you have (Overwatch, Reaction Fire, Opening Volley).

That certainly offers up a more nuance system: if the abilities specifically said which could and which couldn't. (Or if here was a general rule: you can/can't, with e.g. Overwatch being an exception.)

But it's another case of irritating lack of clarity.

Heck, if we're really generalising appropriate to Necromunda - there should be at least five or six different ways to answer this, one of which is laughably overpowered, and two of which are so needlessly specific that they pretty much just do not ever actually occur.

 

[Aulenback]

I mean, Rules As Written are clear: you can change facing freely when Activated before taking any Actions, and you can change facing freely during a Move Action (for non Vehicles). Overwatch and the tactics cards which give a free Shoot Action but not a free Activation then do not give a free Turn To Face. And neither does Mind Control.

Rules As Intended, though, that's what is messy. BECAUSE the writers are so often sloppy, as we have repeatedly seen, we cannot be sure that this surprising clarity really is their intent.

 

[TopsyKretts]

I don't see no free facing as unintentional. You can make all sorts of justification depending on how you happen to imagine it play out. It could be a small mind trick to make you nudge your aim just enough to hit a friendly. Or it could be a deep control, making you run back to your base and shoot the slopper in the face (while preparing food of course).

 

[Scabs]

You young'uns! We learned when the game came out way back before Ariana Grande became a child star that facing was notional. Used and abused, it could turn ever so precisely to obviate the closest enemy target that was 1.1" away. Or, a fighter in the open could edge along the edge of facing LOS to get past Overwatch. Dumb, and very unrealistic. As I sit here facing my computer, when my Huskey enters the room behind me to try to get at my Oreos (DO NOT get a Huskey), I immediately and instinctively turn to face and protect my precious cream-filled cookies. So, Activation facing be damned!. Umm, I mean, to make sure my Huskey eats a healthy diet. Chewing furniture and tearing up pillows and bedspreads requires it.

I repeat...DO NOT get a Huskey!