N18 GSC question regarding third arm rules please help

[kj17822]

Hello all,


I am running a campaign and have a GSC player asking how the following interactions would work on his GSC character that has the third arm rules.

1) if he has third arm and a suspensor harness can it carry 5 weapons. I am assuming there is no issue. Base 3+ third arm+ harness
2) if he is carrying 3 sidearms and a power sword how does melee work? Can he choose to not use any number of the sidearms? I'm going with because he can use three melee/sidearms he can choose the power sword and 2 sidearms, but has to use 2 sidearms of the three.
3). The thing that has me hung up the most. If he runs OOA on the sidearms or just wants to use the third arm for the unarmed rending attack can he choose to do so? Im assuming he'd need to be two of the three guns meaning the third arm isn't forced to sidearm roll. But even then can he "not be holding" the sidearm to make the rending attack since the third arm rules refer to it having to be empty for the unarmed rending attack to be an option?

 

["Technic" Al]

These are some good questions!

So rules as written (and the reason I suspect you've brought it up in the first place) is that both the third arm and suspensor harness only say the fighter may carry a fourth weapon, not an extra weapon. So if you were to strictly follow the letter of the law in the books, the answer would be a resounding no. However, as Arbitrator, you have the ability to approve that combination as a house rule, so if you think the rule is fair, then by all means go for it.

For melee you're on the right track but you're assuming it has to carry a weapon, when the rulebook says may carry a weapon. He isn't forced to use the pistol in combat if he doesn't want to.

As a hypothetical, let's say a Cult Alpha with a power sword, two autopistols, and a plasma pistol makes a charge:
He has two attacks basic, plus one for charging, plus one for having two weapons with the melee/sidearm trait, plus one "third arm" attack, totalling five attacks.
Now, because Sidearm only allows you to make the one attack with it, if the Cult Alpha uses all three of his pistols, he is only getting three attacks total (but two of those attacks have rapid fire, so a gambling alpha might be hoping for a lucky seven hits with the pistols).
If the Alpha decides to use his power sword and two pistols, three of those attacks are forced to use the power sword profile, and the remaining two are the pistol attacks.
However, the Alpha may decide to use his rending third arm. If that is the case, he uses three attacks with the power sword, one attack with any of his three pistols, and one unarmed attack with the rending rule.

If the Alpha has lost all of his weapons (such as when playing the Bar Brawl Scenario) then on the charge he only has four attacks, two base, plus one for charging, plus the "third arm" attack. As I understand it, only the third arm attack has rending, so you would need to use a different coloured dice for it.

 

[kj17822]

This is extremely helpful. I appreciate it.
The big hang up for me in conversation was the reference to the rules requiring you to use a sidearm/melee trait weapon if you have one.

Now, if they go into melee and decided to use the pistol in the first round, are they allowed to drop the pistol in a future attack? if they used the pistol but it went OOA is the third arm still holding the gun allowing for an unarmed attack because the pistol is OOA and therefor not an eligible weapon. Or do they drop it and get to use unarmed rending.

I'm assuming he is allowed to make unarmed rending if he runs OOA. But can he just choose during an ongoing combat to switch the things he is holding for something else?
to the same point can a fighter armed with a two handed weapon and two one handed weapons freely switch between the two or are they locked to the choice of weapons until the engagement ends similar to the rules in mordheim??

Sorry, I'm running my second campaign with about 11 players running the gambit of gangs and I want to make sure I'm getting the rulings right to minimize issues.

 

["Technic" Al]

I'm not sure where you are getting this "have to" from.

The simple answer to try and short-circuit this is to direct you to the close combat sequence on page 120 of the core rulebook. This is the sequence of events that is meant to happen whenever someone makes close combat attacks. Notice that every time this sequence is followed, the controlling player gets to choose what weapons they are fighting with.

 

[kj17822]

Sorry "the have too use" is coming from the unarmed attacks explanation

Particularly the point of, if a model is not equipped with a weapon that has the melee or sidearm trait it can make unarmed attacks. I took that to be literal. That if you have a functioning sidearm as your only weapon you must use it in melee if it is possible.

The not being able to swap is something I must just have pulled from something I read or didn't read correctly.

 

[Aulenback]

2. CHOOSE WEAPONS The controlling player declares which weapons the fighter will use. A fighter can use up to two weaponswith either the Melee or the Sidearm trait, but only oneif it also has the Unwieldy trait. Alternatively, the fighter may make unarmed attacks.

Whenever a fighter makes a close combat attackagainst one or more enemy models, the first step is turning to face the opponent, the second step is choosing and declaring weapons. So weapons can be chosen each time, from among the melee and sidearm weapons and unarmed attack(s) the fighter has, and do not need to remain the same weapons from round to round.

Pistols at Close Quarters: A weapon with the Sidearmtrait can only have one Attack dice allocated to it. Anyremaining Attack dice must be allocated to a weaponwith the Melee trait. If a fighter has no other weaponswith the Melee trait, any remaining Attack dice must beallocated to Unarmed attacks, as described previously

the fighter gains +1 Attack on their profile made as an unarmed attack with the Rending trait. Additionally, any fighter with an Extra Arm may carry a fourth weapon and may attack with three weapons with the Sidearm and/or Melee traits rather than the usual two.

So Unarmed does not usually give an "extra weapon" atttack, but the Third Arm for GSC is explicitly an exception to this, giving +1 Attack which can be either a weapon or Unarmed, and which has the Rending trait regardless. It does not give an exception however to the rule about dividing attack dice as evenly as possible between weapons, just that now it is three weapons/sidearms/unarmed, instead of two as it is for most fighters.

 

[Beebopalulla]

These are some good questions!

So rules as written (and the reason I suspect you've brought it up in the first place) is that both the third arm and suspensor harness only say the fighter may carry a fourth weapon, not an extra weapon. So if you were to strictly follow the letter of the law in the books, the answer would be a resounding no. However, as Arbitrator, you have the ability to approve that combination as a house rule, so if you think the rule is fair, then by all means go for it.

For melee you're on the right track but you're assuming it has to carry a weapon, when the rulebook says may carry a weapon. He isn't forced to use the pistol in combat if he doesn't want to.

As a hypothetical, let's say a Cult Alpha with a power sword, two autopistols, and a plasma pistol makes a charge:
He has two attacks basic, plus one for charging, plus one for having two weapons with the melee/sidearm trait, plus one "third arm" attack, totalling five attacks.
Now, because Sidearm only allows you to make the one attack with it, if the Cult Alpha uses all three of his pistols, he is only getting three attacks total (but two of those attacks have rapid fire, so a gambling alpha might be hoping for a lucky seven hits with the pistols).
If the Alpha decides to use his power sword and two pistols, three of those attacks are forced to use the power sword profile, and the remaining two are the pistol attacks.
However, the Alpha may decide to use his rending third arm. If that is the case, he uses three attacks with the power sword, one attack with any of his three pistols, and one unarmed attack with the rending rule.

If the Alpha has lost all of his weapons (such as when playing the Bar Brawl Scenario) then on the charge he only has four attacks, two base, plus one for charging, plus the "third arm" attack. As I understand it, only the third arm attack has rending, so you would need to use a different coloured dice for it.

So if it's a corrupted venator or squat corrupted venator with a power pack weapon how many?

 

["Technic" Al]

So if it's a corrupted venator or squat corrupted venator with a power pack weapon how many?

None. I'm going to shoot him with a mining laser before he gets close enough to require answering that question!

For serious I don't think you can legally do that, or at the very least the logistics of that are so bad that doing so would be the crowning achievement of the campaign. To start with, the Book of Desolation does say that only the six houses can be infected by the genestealer curse should the player choose, immediately shorting the possibility of you starting with corrupted venators. Even if you were to take the meaning that only the six can start cursed and others would have to try and embrace the cult during gameplay (not a stance I agree with) you have to go through that and then the only fighters that can start with third arms are Juves, which venators don't have so let's scratch them off of the list.
That leads us to squats. You would need to:
* Convince your arbitrator that squats can get corrupted.
* Play at least one game before wandering the tunnels to get corrupted
* Birth a new three-armed abhuman monstrosity.
* Wait for him to mature to juve age (fifty, though Deathwatch by Steve Parker suggests Hybrids mature quicker so let's say a fractional fifteen years)
* Buy that juve a circular saw for his spawn-day, then break a pick blade in half and give him the pieces and tell him he has two fighting knives now.
* Stare at the 110 credit juve you have crafted for this thought exercise. Then waddle him into combat.

Hate to say it, but it's a pitiful five attacks on the charge hitting on 5+. Hardly the stuff of nightmares.

 

[Beebopalulla]

Oh i know all that. I just like the absurdity of the idea . But...a venator can be from one of the six house. As for corruption that rule makes litle to no sense when it comes to human.I don't think you can say to a genestealer or chaos cult "hey i dont belong to a house so i can't be corrupted "

Also mutant

21-23 Extra Appendages: The Mutant increases their Attacks characteristic by 1. In addition, they may use up to three weapons with the Sidearm or Melee trait at the same time.

https://www.warhammer-community.com...f-mutants-boiling-from-beneath-the-underhive/

So about that Goliath mutant corruoted genestealer venator?

 

[Aulenback]

Also mutant

So about that Goliath mutant corruoted genestealer venator?

Both the Mutant "Extra Appendages," and the GSC third arm use the same phrasing, so a hypothetical Genestealer-corrupted extra-appendages mutant would have +1A for the mutation, and +1A for the "third" arm, for a total of plus two extra attack dice, but still be restricted to three melee/sidearm weapons during the Fight action in question. Easy peasy.

 

[Heart of Storm]

Unarmed does not usually give an "extra weapon" atttack, but the Third Arm for GSC is explicitly an exception to this, giving +1 Attack which can be either a weapon or Unarmed, and which has the Rending trait regardless. It does not give an exception however to the rule about dividing attack dice as evenly as possible between weapons, just that now it is three weapons/sidearms/unarmed, instead of two as it is for most fighters.

So this isn't quite my interpretation of the rules, as written the Alpha gets to have an extra attack but it MUST be an unarmed rending attack. He also gets to use a 3rd weapon.

So, a charging Alpha with 2 autopistols and a power sword gets 2 attacks base, +1 for charging and +1 for having 2 or more melee weapons, which he can divide amongst at least two of his three weapons (so either one or two autopistol attacks, and two or three power sword attacks) he then ADDITIONALLY gets an unarmed rending attack from his 3rd arm, he can't choose to use a weapon here as the rule explicitly states this extra attack is unarmed and rending.

 

[libratorr]

So this isn't quite my interpretation of the rules, as written the Alpha gets to have an extra attack but it MUST be an unarmed rending attack. He also gets to use a 3rd weapon.

So, a charging Alpha with 2 autopistols and a power sword gets 2 attacks base, +1 for charging and +1 for having 2 or more melee weapons, which he can divide amongst at least two of his three weapons (so either one or two autopistol attacks, and two or three power sword attacks) he then ADDITIONALLY gets an unarmed rending attack from his 3rd arm, he can't choose to use a weapon here as the rule explicitly states this extra attack is unarmed and rending.

Don't forget, there's errata for the Alpha arm:

PAGE 43 — CULT ALPHA (LEADER) Amend the final sentence of the Cult Alpha's EXTRA ARM special rule as follows:

Additionally, a Cult Alpha with an Extra Arm may carry a fourth weapon and may attack with three weapons with the Sidearm and/or Melee traits rather than the usual two.

Reasonable reading of that gives the extra arm attack access to Rending, as per the basic third arm rule on acolytes and neonates.