GW is planning new Specailist Games minis?

Well in that case I've had no chance of being a Space Marine for quite some time.

Seriously speaking, sure a company can charge whatever they like for their product. But this has its impact! I'll repeat here what I said over on BoLS: basically, increasing the price of a product will reduce sales. Not might: WILL. It reduces the number of potential customers who can afford the product, and out of those who CAN afford it reduces the number who can justify or are willing to shell out for that product. This is just as true with toy soldiers as it is with milk or motor vehicles or anything else you care to name - and it effects luxuries, such as toy soldiers, far more than it'd effect, say, bread.

Strange as it may seem, cutting price is a good way to increase sales and as a very direct result drive up profitability. Where do you think the likes of 'Black Friday Bargains' come from? It sure as hell isn't out of the goodness of anyone's heart, and those 'bargains' sure as hell aren't being sold at a loss!

There are things that can be done to counteract the effect on sales of high price, mostly around marketeering tricks and the right advertising. But GW do not, have to my awareness NEVER, do those things. You can get away with it by top-noth market research, knowing exactly what your customers want and exactly what they are willing to pay for it - but again, GW do not do so: Tom Kirby has openly bragged about their total lack of market research, an attitude which after seventeen years in the retail industry had me reacting like he'd turned round and grown an extra head. Finally, you can get away with it by having a vastly higher-quality product than the competition - which a few hours study of what GW's myriad competitors are doing will adequately demonstrate that they flat-out do not have. Their miniatures are good, world-class even - but they are far from 'the best ever', they certainly are not unmatched either in quality or in value for money, and their rules are crud.

The only thing GW have is their IP - and 40k is not Star Wars: it is flat-out just not a big enough name to indefinitely support a product at GW's price mark. This is why we're seeing things like using IP (Admech, Harlies, rumours of Stealers) they'd left essentially untouched since the 1990s, this is why the total revamp of Fantasy (badly implemented as it appears to have been) in an attempt to more directly compete with the likes of Heroclix, this is why the relaunch of Specialist Games; none of those are the action of a company resting on its laurels. All of those are the actions of a company in a mad scramble to halt a decline - I just don't think they're doing enough. Pulling out of a dive can be a stone-cold bitch no matter how gradual it is - I could very well elaborate, I work for a company that came to the point one bad week at the wrong time would have put us under during the worst of the credit crunch; we're in substantially better shape now but we had a devil of a time doing it.

I think it should be clear I think GW's prices (with a side order of pisspoor rules) are the biggest cause for the decline we've seen (those of us who've been keeping an eye on their bottom line and market share) over the last few years from their roughly-2002 peak. Sooner or later they're going to have to wake up to the fact that they are in the gaming industry, that good games are necessary to their survival, and that their products are at a noncompetitive price point. It's just a matter of how bad a financial situation they're going to find themselves in first.

We shall assuredly see.
 
They are doing much better and the recent changes are encouraging. A lot of the hate on forums simply comes from it being the internet.
What I rarely see in talks about their problems is the impact of ebay. There are currently 130,000 things under 'warhammer' in ebay UK. Say the average sale price is £7.50, and only of it actually 10% sells, that's £5million in sales in the UK that they don't see. If the UK is 1/3 of their market, they are loosing £15million through re-sales. Bear in mind that ebay is cheaper than direct, so the figure is likely much greater than that. This has forced them to constantly add new stuff, to get new buyers/interest the vets who already have it all, and this includes bigger stuff, so prices increase, and it also includes making the armies bigger to get vets to expand. I don't actually see a way round this, the AOS re-launch idea has some merit, albeit badly implemented.

That said, computer games are the same price now as they were years ago, and dreamforge games make a better, bigger, cheaper night titan in in smaller quantities with more weapon options and less manufacturing experience than GW do, so their prices could certainly take a hit.

still, read the 'introduce yourself' thread - we all got into gaming through heroquest, space crusade, warhammer quest and necro. if they move back into the box set era it could be a golden age, and with 3d printing round the corner this could be the golden age of technology.
 
@Azzabat sorry, I don't understand, what is wrong with a publicly limited company making a product and charging for it? What obligation do they have to charge less for a product when they can charge more?

RobStrachan, I have no problem with any company, GW or otherwise, making a profit. That's what any company is in business for. I'm not disagreeing that they make some wonderful stuff, and that some of the prices they charge are comparable with other games manufactures. I just dont like it.

Like @Blood Donor I'm romantising as I can remember the Good Old Days when GW was a gateway into the hobby. They had stores that were friendly, all inclusive places to go, meet friends, or just hang out. I used to love playing 40K and WHFB and had at least a dozen armies, but GW destroyed those games for me. I dropped out when it became obvious you might as well just put your bank statement on the table and whoever had the most money was the winner. I also disagree strongly with a lot of GW's practices in recent years. This is not just GW, I'm a great believier in fairness (I am probably the most Canadian Canadian you will ever meet. :D) and I refuse to buy anything from Amazon, Starbucks or Walmart/Asda because of their trading practices.

This is just MY opinion, and I'm growing ever older and bitter now. Everything is too loud these days, there are too many people in my local pub, and Policeman and Doctors all look about 12 years old. Now in my day ..... :p
 
Last edited by a moderator:
I think the long and short of it is that the market and player base have both changed over the last +/- fifteen years, and GW has only just started to change as of this year.

I'm not a hater, at least I don't think I am - I regularly buy from GW and feel I'm getting my money's worth - but I've got a lot higher disposable income than many and I do suspect they're hurting their own sales. I don't consider what I say hating on them, it's intended as and comes from concern as what has been visible from our end is alarmingly reminiscent of things such as the lead-up to the bankruptcy of TSR, and it's based around my knowledge of how retail works.

I'd hate, really hate, to see GW go under - 40k has been a huge part of my life since the year I was twelve and is likely to continue to be so for the rest of my life.
 
I think the long and short of it is that the market and player base have both changed over the last +/- fifteen years, and GW has only just started to change as of this year.

I'm not a hater, at least I don't think I am - I regularly buy from GW and feel I'm getting my money's worth - but I've got a lot higher disposable income than many and I do suspect they're hurting their own sales. I don't consider what I say hating on them, it's intended as and comes from concern as what has been visible from our end is alarmingly reminiscent of things such as the lead-up to the bankruptcy of TSR, and it's based around my knowledge of how retail works.

I'd hate, really hate, to see GW go under - 40k has been a huge part of my life since the year I was twelve and is likely to continue to be so for the rest of my life.
Yeah that is well said. I have played 40k, but even when I first got into it as a kid playing 3rd edition it was too big and unweildy for me, not to mention expensive.

I like the trend of games now, smaller and more skirmish based, but the problem is that in my mind GW lore will always be the definitive form of sci fi war gaming (alongside battle tech, naturally). All these other warmahorddropzonemalefaux etc will always be a pale imitation to me.

So it is good seeing specialist games return, they are the only miniatures games I ever really liked!
 
  • Like
Reactions: draakeragon
I remember the time when a space marine was 31 points instead of what they are now. The time when armies were 50% the size compared to today. Then GW decided in order to sell more models to drop the piny cost of all units by half their cost
 
Thatcher was a women ... go figure. ;)

I never really agreed with her or her policies, but no-one fucked with us when she was in charge.
 
  • Like
Reactions: spafe
Personally, the market has changed in the last 15 years. GW has more competition that ever before and computer games etc are better than ever. GW has to choose a way to defend itself against all this and it does so by making a premium product and charging for it. In a recession, luxury producers don't lower costs because that just reduces profit (it must cost loads to making models as well designed as GW does). People with enough disposable income will always buy, and those who can't won't unless it is really really cheap. GW can sell less and still make profit by charging more. Not to mention that if GW charged less it would start a deflationary price war reaction that would be bad in the market and cost jobs.

Not trying to offend anyone, but this whole argument seems to boil down to those who look back fondly with rose-tinted glasses and fail to appreciate that GW is under attack more that ever before and those who don't. GW are choosing a way to differentiate their product in a saturated market and some people don't like how they do it. Maybe everyone should be thankful to GW for this amazing hobby and amazing products that still supports British workers and British jobs and accept the world is not how it was.

Sorry for the rant.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
Except basic salesmanship. Why do people throw up 'buy one get one free'? I can tell you for one hundred percent certain that those products all over the joint any time you're down the local supermarket, or, hell, toyshop on 'buy one get one free' or 'random-looking percent extra free' or whatever other such promotion are NOT being sold at a loss at any point in the supply line! That's not out of the goodness of anyone's heart - it's a calculated and highly effective measure intended to drive sales up.

Basically, if your cost to produce and get into customers hands is ten pounds per unit with all costs factored in - wages, rent on premises, transport, electricity bill, insurance,etc - and you sell two hundred at twenty quid each making you profit per item ten quid, your total profit comes out at two grand. If by knocking off two quid per item, making your profit per item eight quid, you could then sell more than two hundred and fifty, you are instantly better off: the profit per item doesn't count for jack just so long as there is some sort of a profit there, it's the total at the bottom of the accounts sheet when you're done adding all of your sales together and shelling out for your costs that means something. And make no mistake, a price drop always always ALWAYS increases sales!
 
  • Like
Reactions: draakeragon
In basic salesmanship, yes. In terms of more modern business strategy it's more complex than that. It's quite possible to raise prices and increase profit as it can make the product more desirable due to its perceived exclusivity.

Furthermore if cutting prices increases sales that can be great - except at a certain point more sales are more trouble than they're worth. If a company is expecting to sell two hundred units and the demand ends up being a thousand that can be a huge problem. Scaling up production costs a great deal and disrupts the business' existing strategy.

There's a lot more thought that goes into the asking price than supply and demand these days.
 
  • Like
Reactions: draakeragon
There is also the Public mentality to factor into this. One place I worked had a sales technique to sell their product of also packaging their product in expensive packaging under a different name. People would look at the "expensive brand" and then see their product which had the same ingrediants (of course) but cheaper, then purchase that thinking they were getting a bargain. Sales is very complicated and there are whole areas of psychology and economics devoted to it.
 
@doghead Luxury products are not sold as buy one get one free because it removes the image of them being a luxury product. Cheap(er) stuff is because they are by definition inferior products. GW doesn't do BOGOF because they compete on quality not price.

Anywho there is no one right or wrong answer for this.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
 
The key question there is that they are not succeeding in competing on quality ATM. Their rules are pretty dismal - if you want to see quality rule design look somewhere like Warlord - while their miniatures are either very good to great (GW plastics) or first rate (Forge World) while being priced for the plastics at the same point as the competition's Forge World level stuff, for Forge World at the same point as the competition's beyond-first-rate 'masterwork' stuff.

Their miniatures are excellent but they are nothing even approaching unrivalled and they need to compete in more ways than they are at this point in time doing. I get the impression they've recognised this - this is why releases like Admech or Harlies or plastic 30k, this is why the talk about relaunching Specialist Games, that right there is GW working to get back sections of the market they had largely lost - such as us, the skirmish wargames crowd. I just fear that they are not doing enough to get out of the decline they've been in for the last few years - and I strongly feel that at the end of the day their pricing structure is doing them more harm than good. It fits excellently as one of the largest contributory factors in their ongoing sales slump.
 
  • Like
Reactions: draakeragon