N18 Help for Van Saar campaign needed

[Tungstonid]

Hi all,

so, two friends and I have started a campaign last week and each of us had two games so far. After having spend three days thinking about the result and my further possibilities, I am at a bit of a loss because from what little Necromunda experience I have, I may have as well run it into the ground from my side. So I hope someone can give me some general and specific advice on how to proceed.
But I feel like I have to add a little disclaimer and background first: From the three of us, I estimate myself as being at the bottom skill-wise, hence why I wasn't surprise about the overall result. I play WH40k and AoS from time to time but, again, not as much as the other two. General rules for Necromunda are sitting ok with me, but I don't have the overview over things like different scenarios etc (This is something I will definitively look into before the next games). I started with Van Saar - and Necromunda for that matter - a bit before the release of House of Artifice. The enemy gangs consist of Delaque and Escher.

I started the campaign with the following list:
Prime (Leader): Mesh Armor, Lasgun, Hystar Pattern Energy Shield, Skill: Overseer
Augmek (Champion): Mesh Armor, Plasma Gun, Laspistol, Skills: Munitioneer
Augmek (Champion): Mesh armor, Suppression Laser, Skill: Fast Shot
Tek Specialist: Flak Armor, Rad Gun
Tek: Flak Armor, Lasgun
Tek: Flak Armor, Lasgun
Subtek: Flak Armor, Lasgun

While building the list I wanted to go for additional survivability, especially for the leader(s), hence the energy shield on the prime. The champions were supposed to bring some heavier equipment than lasguns.
Over the last days I already did some reading and some possible errors became apparent: Energy shields are not worth it to take during gang creation (and at this point I agree), the leader should have gotten a weapon with more oomph because BS2+... So there is room for improvement. Or rather, was.

The first game was against the Delaque gang and we played Sneak Attack with me as the defender. The game seemed even, I managed to spot the enemy gang early, fighters on both sides went down. Still, it was a loss for me with Delaque defiling the gang relic in the 4th or so turn. In hindsight, the most damage to the enemy gang was probably made by the gully monster, snatching one of the top fighters of Delaque early on and taking a lot of fire from them afterwards. I was rewarded 130 credits, 80 of which I had to spend to have the specialist be treated by the doc. Furthermore, the Augmek with suppression laser died.
For the second game, the recovery time of my gangers was neglected for balance reasons. Against Escher, Sneak Attack was played again, and again I was the defender. This one went considerably faster, with them defiling the relic in turn 2 while my gangers stumbled around helplessly. Some went down and I retreated as soon as possible to cut my losses. This game rewarded me with 50 more credits and two gangers of the remaining 6 in recovery.
As for the terretories, Delaque holds the Generatorum (win against me) while Escher holds a tech bazzar (win against Delaque) and the Colllapsed Dome (win against me)

TLDR: My gang currently stands with 4 out of 6 remaining gangers for campaign week 2 and has 100 credits available to spend.

While weigthing my options I came to the following conclusion regarding equipment: With 100 credits I can acquire infra-sights or ocular cybertechnika (as far as I understand, contrary to the infra-sight itself, they also work on rapid fire weapons) for at least part of the gangers. Or I can spend them on Juves or an additional ganger. Personally I prefer Option 1, since the Generatorum grants Delaque the ability to cut the lights at the beginning of any priority phase and Escher likes to play with smoke grenades. On the other hand, I am missing bodies as well.
If the Cybertechnika turns out to be a realistic option, the next problem will arise when sending the Augmek into recovery. With 3 or even 4 out of 6 gangers available (some with permanent damage) against gangs in at least full starting strength (Escher is thinking about recruiting a Chemyst), I just don't feel confident enough to make a significant impact. There may be scenarios for this, but at this point I would prefer to save the ressources I (don't) have and wait for the recovering gangers to get back up again. Yet, it doesn't sit right with me to "throw a game".
Regarding experience, most of the gang is sitting at around two points, except for the remaining Augmek who sits on 11 points, 4 of which he received through the house favour I rolled up. Another 4 for disabling important enemies, 1 for rallying after panicking etc.

So, what to do? For the equipment, I feel like I am damned if I do and just as damned if I don't get some visual gear/gangers. Is there other equipment I should focus on?
I have read about catch-up mechanics before but it seems they are house-ruled for the most part except for the underdog tactics. Therefore, there isn't really a plan (yet) in that direction by the game master. This may change, though. The house favours are something I will continue to use since I can't lose a ganger via the result at the moment anyway.

 

[Psyan]

Yep, you're definitely in a bad spot, due to both bad luck and a less than great starting roster.
You should explore the underdog and catch up rules with your friends; unless they're total sadists, it's probably not going to be much fun to beat up on your depleted gang. You should be getting some extra cards and maybe a few bodies (temporary or otherwise) to bolster your odds.
Also look at scenario selection; some of them can be played with low model counts, which can give you a chance to play on more equal numerical footing and your fighters a chance to come out of recovery. I always try to have a few low-number, low-lethality, high-reward scenarios set up in case one of the gangs in my campaigns gets too beat up.

If restarting your gang is an option, it's worth considering. I've allowed players with serious regrets to restart (sometimes with some small bonuses) early in the campaign.

Regarding gang composition, I'm guessing that you're already seeing where you went wrong. Seven is an acceptable starting number for VS, but eight is a lot better and my personal minimum. I don't use Overseer, but it can be really effective if you've got a pair of heavily-armed Augmeks and keep your Prime cheap, Lasgun and Mesh Armor only; save the shield for later. Lascannons and (to a much lesser extent) Plasma Cannons are best for this, though 2-3 Plasma Guns can also be great. Sadly, the Rad Gun sucks for the price. Put a Lasgun on that fighter so he has something to shoot when your targets aren't close. Generally speaking, you want 2-3 weapons of Plasma Gun quality (Plasma Gun, Meltagun, Lascannon and Plasma Cannon, in roughly that order) if you want to be effective. People complain about VS Plasma spam, but we unfortunately don't have many other workable options. The Suppression Laser also kind of sucks. It's more expensive than a regular shotgun and lacks the ammo options; a Lasgun with Hotshot is cheaper and generally more useful.

If you're unable to restart, you've got an uphill struggle. Give the Plasma Gun Augmek an infrasight or goggles or (especially if they're already in recovery) ocular cyberteknika. Maybe give him your Prime's shield, if you can. This is the guy who can save your gang, he should be protected.
You need more bodies, quick. Start buying Subteks with Lasguns. Don't buy them armor until you've increased your numbers to 8-9. Put the dead Augmek's Suppression Laser on one of your Teks. It's not great, but since you already own it, it's technically now free. You'll also want to upgrade the lethality of your shooting. You don't have the credits for anything serious, so you'll want to pick up Hotshots for your Teks with Lasguns. Don't do anything with the Prime; as an Overseer, his entire job revolves around ensuring the Plasma Gun Augmek gets extra actions (this is why I dislike Overseer).
Once you're at 8-9 models, you'll want to save up for for an Augmek and another Plasma Gun or similarly damaging weapon. Keep in mind that with a trip to the Trading Post you could put a Boltgun or Grenade Launcher on an Augmek; those are cheap, effective options, if you're ok with committing the heresy of taking a non-VS weapon.

 

[Tungstonid]

Thank you, those are already valuable suggestions.
I guess I should have saved some of the defensive equipment (including the shield) for additional bodies since, contrary to 40k and AoS, this game is not so much about preventing wounds but not rolling OoA on the Wound Die. At least that's how it feels.

The main problem I face is that, yes, I need more bodies. There is no way around it. But for new bodies and the existing ones to be able to do anything, I also need infra-sights/googles/cybertechnika since both enemy gangs have easy access to shut down my shooting. So, with 100 credits I can go for another Subtek with Lasgun. Then I would have to choose between 1x googles or 2x infra-sight (which the plasma Augmek can't use because of Rapid Fire on the Plasma Gun) or 1x CT... The Augmek will be the top priority for the other players anyway, so photo-googles may have to do.

Under my current circumstances I have to use what I can, so I will look into the grande launcher and Boltgun as well.

 

[Psyan]

A possible additional path, since you're in somewhat desparate straits, would be to either ask your friends to let you swap out Overseer on your prime or to simply disregard it and equip him for fighting. You could afford a Bolter or GL and some optics right now.
Or do it immediately after you've added the Subtek and the goggles.

Also, since you're short on bodies right now, don't gamble. Bottle early and as often as needed. It's better to lose the scenario and get away with a few credits and all your fighters than it is to risk having more fighters die or go into recovery.

 

[JayTee]

Losing a Champion early on can be pretty crippling, I'd potentially look into the White Dwarf Resurrection Packages to bring him back. The Rez packages are thematically fun, add an interesting narrative direction to the gang, and are reasonably well balanced as the rezzed guy will likely not stick around forever and may come with some solid drawbacks.

 

[Psyan]

I've never seen those. Does anyone have an image/pdf?

Also, it's not a bad thing to incorporate a house rule saying that no one can perma-die during the first few matches. A death and an expensive trip to the doc in the first week or two is a campaign breaker.

 

[Bracer]

Ok, i feel i have something to contribute.

Overseer is not a horrible skill. If you think about it, it would allow a really nasty weapon to shoot twice, like a heavy weapon. However due to economic constraints it works best when combined with plasma gun and fast shot. This potentially allows one model to shoot a plasma gun 4 times and... the most important bit... clear out an entire hallway in one activation. So consider it, there isnt really a whole lot of use putting on kid gloves when dealing with your mates, because they eventually will feel the pull of khorne and fail to do the same thing. However, the one clause on this is broken mechanics which you just agree with your opponent not to use, for example, random gang generation on a mission where he could roll 6 and you roll 4 is a broken mechanic imo. I mean, does it SOUND fun?

Im not really shocked and amazed you lost a sneak attack mission against delaque when they are basically designed from the ground up for this one mission type. Also you were the defender which only added another negative.

Im not really sure how the escher player won without it being proof positive that attack is innately better than defense. But there is one big lesson to take from all this. Van Saar is a ranged gang. Sneak attack negates all ranged combat and can even screw up who gets first turn. Not a good combo for Van Saar. So lift your head up! Look into the sun! All you need to do is make sure the next couple games are biased in favor of ranged combat.

A little bit of background. My Venators squad was grown out of what started off as Van Saar listbuilding from GotU. I very quickly realised i liked bolters better than plasma guns and long rifles better than longlas'es. But the theory is the same. If you stuck some longlas'es in your team you'd suddenly start pinning things at 36" range. Sound good? Then this allows you to manuver your other gangers into advantageous cover AND score the objectives. A long las is 20c and Common, it is also Str4, so in that respect it is much like a lasgun (10c) with a hotshot (20c) but totals 30c, and it has +12" range and retains its 2+ ammo roll. So the question im asking is, why not just drop the lasgun altogether and equip all with longlas? You can even add a infra sight later on. In my Venators list i put two such sniping weapons on my gang. I think it wound up being 1 long rifle on the Leader and 1 on the Specialist. Reason being that the leader is really just there to buff another guy with a big gun + fast shot. And if that guy dies hes supposeed to switch targets onto the second guy with the second biggest gun. So really hes only really there to take an opportunistic shot every now and again, and the longer the range, the more opportunistic you can be. Push the range out to 36" or even 42" you have expanded the definition of 'opportunist', and it only cost you 20c. So for this reason i think you were on the right track with the energy shield. The enemy can earn so much Xp and Credits from killing your leader that it would just ruin the game. That being said, in my Venators list i chose to give the Leader the T4 profile because it didnt cost credits like the shield does. But a shield is second best option, and its a good shield too! So in other words if your going to stick with Van Saar, because of their lovely flavor, then consider doing these two things. You should be able to buy a longlas right off the trading post with no rolls as it is common. Proof in point; your leader has 2+BS, so he cannot really benefit from the lasguns short range bonus. But if he has a longlas wew lad, he doesnt even need to worry about its lack of short range bonus. To put it another way, if you add +12" onto your weapon, then thats another turn of enemy movement in which you can make maximum use of your 2+BS.

Now for the other, harder problem to solve. The smoke / lights issue. Theres no way around it. You need extra bodies more than you need infra. Just relax safe in the knowledge that the opponent, unless they have both invested heavily in infra, are being made blind by the same rules they are using against you. So try to play them out, just try to weather the storm until the smoke fades and the lights go back on. If you are pinning them at 36" they wont really know what is the right time to blind you. The only thing you need to worry about is delaque infiltration. Theres no way to solve that except making sure every team member has a buddy. If one team member gets pinned by an infiltrated delaque, then the second "buddy" can retaliate and pin the delaqe. This is good because anything that is delaque that infiltrates is a high value target. And they are sending them to you one at a time. Do you get me? Unless hes a clever delaque and infiltrates all his dudes with a buddy. But in that case he will usually unbalance the board and you run up and score the objective marker on his weak flank. Infiltrate isnt the final boss of necromunda like it's supposed to be. But its thematic af.

As for defeating the escher. I dunno. Im actually building my own escher gang atm. I could give you some advice but you'll have to tell me more about his list.

 

[Bracer]

I think a big problem in your team is the Rad gun. When i first saw the radgun stats i thought "humm, a flamer that only wounds on 5+ with a minty aftertaste, very thematic but id only take it if its cheap..." but its 100c. Thats the price of 5 longlas or 2 hystrar shields. Trap.

The suppression laser. Again. Trap. Should have been like a hotshot volleygun. In that case fast shot would make the most sense in the world. But its statline is basically a shotgun. But all is not lost. The suppression laser can look like allot of things. A lasgun? A longlas even? Just stick a scope on there and say that the fast shot is achieved by engineering an entire secondary barrel. Its called bitz bash for a reason.

So lets say hypothetically... just as a thought experiment you did this: 100c
Juve 35c w/ lasgun 10c = 45 (3+BS at 18" is enough, even before taking the aim action)
x2 Longlas (one on suppression laser guy, then... its up to you, but maybe put the other one on the leader, just stick a scope on his lasgun for wysiwyg) 40c
SELL Radgun. Then buy either more longlas or infra sights for longlas / infra goggles for plasma guy.

 

[Psyan]

It's kind of a shame that VS don't have the Long Las on their list. If they did, I would probably take 2 in every list.
If you happen to have a Prime or Augmek who has a main weapon with a range of less than 24", the Long Las is a nice second weapon.

 

[Tungstonid]

The Rad Gun is not bad for pinning plus additional flesh wounds but, again, something that at this point I wouldn't take in a starting crew. The range is just too short for comfort and the price too high.
The Augmek with Suppression Laser ist lost, as is her weapon. The explanation being that she died and I bottled voluntarily, therefore no fighter of mine was on the battlefield anymore. At least that is how it was ruled right now but we are thinking about house-ruling parts of this.

For now, I am thinking about settling on the following:
1 Juve with Lasgun (45 Credits) --> Yes, more bodies needed
1 Photo-googles (35 Credits) --> for the Augmek with Plasma Gun. At the Moment, he his probably my main damage dealer and I can't go completely without anything that can counteract pitch black and smoke
1 Longlas (20 Credits) --> I am thinking about sticking it on my Specialist Ganger with Rad Gun since the Prime will resort to giving his activation to the Plasma Augmek. So hopefully the Specialist will not be useless anymore on ranges over 8"

After the next battles I will try to build up more bodies and googles/infra-sights, up until the point where I feel I can go for other equipment.

Unfortunately, RAW I can not give the Prime's energy shield to my Augmek, nor can I sell the Rad Gun (Weapons can not be put into the stash which I would have to do). And my GM would like to stick with these rules. To be fair, it would make the Tools of Trade rule pointless.

 

[Psyan]

Your shopping list looks pretty good.

Here are some other things you might be able to do to help your gang.

Roll on VS House Favors (pg 89). You've got two gangs above you, so you're protected from the bad result and unlikely to get the risky result. It's free, so do this first. You'll get some free gear, a skill or possibly a free temporary fighter for the campaign week.

Petition for a House Agent (pg 70). Your rep is probably 0-1, right? This means you'll get an Augmek with 150cr of gear for a single battle and probably only pay 40cr, or at most 80cr. You can't do it at the same time as House Favors, though.

Petition the Arachnotek Golem (pg 72). Riskier than the House Agent and slightly more expensive, but very powerful, particularly in CC. Just don't lose the battle! Again, you can't do it at the same time as requesting House Favor.

Are you playing with allies? If so, you can ally with someone and make use of Guild Representatives and enjoy a few useful benefits. This costs nothing other than abiding by the Drawbacks in the alliance entry.

 

[Tungstonid]

The House Favours are definitively on my To Do list. I will look into the house agents as soon as I can spare the credits.

Allies are not allowed in the campaign since we wanted to keep it simple.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

That was some bad luck to start a campaign. House Favours would be a good shout.

I am assuming you have low Rep but you can still get a few hangers on. a Rouge Doc and a Slopper are essential to the credit hungry gangs like Van Saar. You will end up having expensive fighters in recovery and critically wounded and you can not afford to have a 2d6X10 credit cost constantly draining your funds and the Slopper will give you the chance to get somebody back in the fight.
Your shopping list is alright.
"1 Juve with Lasgun (45 Credits) Teks would be better but at 18" a hit roll of 3+ before cover is perfectly adequate
1 Photo-googles (35 Credits) --> for the Augmek with Plasma Gun. Maybe consider the Ocular Van Saar Bionic. It applies to all ranged weapons he carries and give you some protection against new critical injuries to his eyes. Plus rule as written it applies the Infrasight bonus to the rapid fire profile.
1 Longlas (20 Credits) --> I am thinking about sticking it on my Specialist Ganger with Rad Gun since the Prime will resort to giving his activation to the Plasma Augmek. So "I Think your specialist is still limited to their list for special weapons so no long las ( the only Las weapon the LASER gang has no base access to WHY?).
You may have to play very carefully until you get back on track. Many of the scenarios have a few loop holes foe weaker gangs to exploit. for the scenarios that rely on kill points/counts use your Plasma gun or a lucky first hit to scare the first point then boldly run all your guys off the board. For most missions the game ends when one fighter has no more bodies on the board. They do not all have to be taken out of action. Grab the quick kill the leg it. Technically you win the mission and gain the rewards with this douche move, sometimes not a huge reward, and you prevent further critical injury spam. rinse and repeat until your gang is in a more stable position.

Remember that Pitch black and Smoke work both ways if you can see them chances are they can not see you. While they lock down your firing lanes reposition, get in cover etc.
Also remember Loot caskets. Yours is the gang that can reliably open them safely. Only give you D6 credits (Most of the time) but as Tesco says every little helps. Once had a neotek do nothing but zip around the board snaffling loot caskets for a campaign. He pulled in 124 credits in the campaign and only got hit in the face with a frag trap once.

 

[Tungstonid]

Hi Lunarcruiser, the slopper and doc will be added to my list as well when I can spare the credits. Maybe it even makes sense to buy them when the gang head count reches 8 or so.
I already used the House Favours for the first battles and it at least netted me a nice amount of experience on the remaining Augmek. I will continue to do this because, yes, I will get a bonus of +2 on the roll, so no fighter will have to leave due to a low role.

What do you mean by the specialist being limitied to special weapons? According to the HoA book, he can choose freely from the weapon lists on this page, including but not limitied to special weapons.
Regarding the smoke and PB working both ways... in the mean time the other gangs made sure to not be locked down by it. At least with their important fighters. Yes, the cybertechnika would be nice but right now this is just not possible.

 

[Psyan]

Van Saar Specialists have a "fun" rule that says they can only use the weapons on the House List... and the Long Las isn't on the list. You can only put the Long Las on your Leader and Champions.
On the upside, they can use the Heavy Weapons on the House List, unlike some other Specialists.

 

[AdmiralSnackbar]

Yep, you're definitely in a bad spot, due to both bad luck and a less than great starting roster.
You should explore the underdog and catch up rules with your friends; unless they're total sadists, it's probably not going to be much fun to beat up on your depleted gang. You should be getting some extra cards and maybe a few bodies (temporary or otherwise) to bolster your odds.
Also look at scenario selection; some of them can be played with low model counts, which can give you a chance to play on more equal numerical footing and your fighters a chance to come out of recovery. I always try to have a few low-number, low-lethality, high-reward scenarios set up in case one of the gangs in my campaigns gets too beat up.

If restarting your gang is an option, it's worth considering. I've allowed players with serious regrets to restart (sometimes with some small bonuses) early in the campaign.

Regarding gang composition, I'm guessing that you're already seeing where you went wrong. Seven is an acceptable starting number for VS, but eight is a lot better and my personal minimum. I don't use Overseer, but it can be really effective if you've got a pair of heavily-armed Augmeks and keep your Prime cheap, Lasgun and Mesh Armor only; save the shield for later. Lascannons and (to a much lesser extent) Plasma Cannons are best for this, though 2-3 Plasma Guns can also be great. Sadly, the Rad Gun sucks for the price. Put a Lasgun on that fighter so he has something to shoot when your targets aren't close. Generally speaking, you want 2-3 weapons of Plasma Gun quality (Plasma Gun, Meltagun, Lascannon and Plasma Cannon, in roughly that order) if you want to be effective. People complain about VS Plasma spam, but we unfortunately don't have many other workable options. The Suppression Laser also kind of sucks. It's more expensive than a regular shotgun and lacks the ammo options; a Lasgun with Hotshot is cheaper and generally more useful.

If you're unable to restart, you've got an uphill struggle. Give the Plasma Gun Augmek an infrasight or goggles or (especially if they're already in recovery) ocular cyberteknika. Maybe give him your Prime's shield, if you can. This is the guy who can save your gang, he should be protected.
You need more bodies, quick. Start buying Subteks with Lasguns. Don't buy them armor until you've increased your numbers to 8-9. Put the dead Augmek's Suppression Laser on one of your Teks. It's not great, but since you already own it, it's technically now free. You'll also want to upgrade the lethality of your shooting. You don't have the credits for anything serious, so you'll want to pick up Hotshots for your Teks with Lasguns. Don't do anything with the Prime; as an Overseer, his entire job revolves around ensuring the Plasma Gun Augmek gets extra actions (this is why I dislike Overseer).
Once you're at 8-9 models, you'll want to save up for for an Augmek and another Plasma Gun or similarly damaging weapon. Keep in mind that with a trip to the Trading Post you could put a Boltgun or Grenade Launcher on an Augmek; those are cheap, effective options, if you're ok with committing the heresy of taking a non-VS weapon.

What would be your 8 man Van Saar starting roster??

 

[Psyan]

Here's a good 8 model list. Strong, but not completely optimized.

Necromunda: Underhive

Necromunda Underhive online tools by YakTribe.games greatly enhances your Necromunda Underhive experience by providing gang management, campaigns, customization and more. No more spreadsheets, manage your gangs online and print out battle tracking sheets and even ganger cards.

yaktribe.games

 

[AdmiralSnackbar]

Here's a good 8 model list. Strong, but not completely optimized.

Necromunda: Underhive

Necromunda Underhive online tools by YakTribe.games greatly enhances your Necromunda Underhive experience by providing gang management, campaigns, customization and more. No more spreadsheets, manage your gangs online and print out battle tracking sheets and even ganger cards.

yaktribe.games

Great reference point thanks.

 

[Psyan]

You could add either more models or better guns and armor by swapping out the Neoteks for Teks or Subteks, but I personally prefer having a couple of relatively speedy models.

 

[Stompzilla]

The Wreckers

Van Saar (HoA) gang with a rating of 1000 by Stompzilla

yaktribe.games

Only 7 but levels up nicely and is quite aggressive.