N18 Hit and Run plus Lightning Reflexes Question

Ailric

Juve
Jan 4, 2019
11
3
3
If your Deathmaiden one or both of these skills, the rule states that a free retreat basic action is allowed before the opponent can swing or a reaction attack is made. As I read it, if the Death Maiden makes her I2+ roll, no reaction attack is triggered for leaving the engagement. Or am I wrong and the opponent rolls his/her initiative and if successful swings regardless of skill?
Any guidance here would be greatly appreciated!
 
Jan 12, 2021
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It isn't clear, but I think that's the intention. Otherwise the skill would be utterly pointless!

By the way, what if your Death Maiden charges in and kills her target. Are you still allowed to Hit and Run, even though there's no one to Retreat from? I've been assuming that you can :)
 
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Devilmixer

Gang Champion
May 19, 2016
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Albertslund, Danmark
If your Deathmaiden one or both of these skills, the rule states that a free retreat basic action is allowed before the opponent can swing or a reaction attack is made. As I read it, if the Death Maiden makes her I2+ roll, no reaction attack is triggered for leaving the engagement. Or am I wrong and the opponent rolls his/her initiative and if successful swings regardless of skill?
Any guidance here would be greatly appreciated!
I have alway thought of it as if you fail you I test you can't move, but no matter if you fail or not your opponent test and if they make it they get to attack
 

Ailric

Juve
Jan 4, 2019
11
3
3
It isn't clear, but I think that's the intention. Otherwise the skill would be utterly pointless!
That was my thought. Essentially it would be a skill that failed 80% of the time against a champion and 50% against a standard I4 Ganger or Juve. Higher actually because you have to make your I2+ before they make their I4+.

An 18% Fail rate on an I2+ roll would be consistent with the Goliath Stimmer as well.

Thank you and looking forward to any other feedback
 

Galtarr

Gang Hero
Mar 1, 2017
1,107
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I have alway thought of it as if you fail you I test you can't move, but no matter if you fail or not your opponent test and if they make it they get to attack
I think I agree. The wording 'even if unsuccessful, this fighters opponent may only make one reaction attack' Does imply the reaction attack' for retreat still happens, it just disallows the normal reaction attack. Which does limit the skill, so I would be inclined to allow retreats even if the target is killed, adding somewhat to its usefulness. (Tldr It allows the retreat action but unfortunately this comes with its own reaction attack.)

That was my thought. Essentially it would be a skill that failed 80% of the time against a champion and 50% against a standard I4 Ganger or Juve. Higher actually because you have to make your I2+ before they make their I4+.

An 18% Fail rate on an I2+ roll would be consistent with the Goliath Stimmer as well.

Thank you and looking forward to any other feedback
Yes, but a deathmaiden should be killing way over 50% of her opponents anyway. And charging a high skill+initiative opponent shouldn't be without risk.

So charge,
Roll to hit( 5*2+), wound (50%) and injure.
Roll I to retreat. (2+)
Opponent rolls I to reaction (2-4+)

So if you fail to kill you have a chance to avoid reaction attacks and a reposition compared to definite reaction attack and being stuck in engagement.

I think the skill 'Hit and run' is as much about the reposition as escaping the reaction attack. The reposition only fails on 16.6%. But yes the skill 'lightening reflexes' could be stronger.😞 but compare to dodge that only gives a 16% chance of avoiding a ranged attack it's at least as strong as that.

Not sure what you mean about the stimmer? Is that the chem stash? Cos that fails on 33.3% (D3) 😉
 
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Jan 12, 2021
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Not sure what you mean about the stimmer? Is that the chem stash? Cos that fails on 33.3% (D3) 😉

The Goliath Stimmer adds 1D3 to his attacks, but if he rolls a natural 1 his attacks drop to 1 instead. So that's an 18% chance of failure.

So the argument is: If the Death Maiden fails her Initiative Test to retreat (which is also on a 1) that is also an 18% chance of failure. But if the target also gets to take an Initiative Test and can still do reaction attacks, against a target with Initiative 4 it becomes a 41% chance of failure. So the Stimmer wins.

The chances of the Death Maiden hitting and getting away without getting hit back are 49%. If the target is Initiative 3 the chances of getting away are 45%, which isn't much of a 'Hit and Run'.

Still not terrible, but not as good as it seems it's intended to be?
 

Galtarr

Gang Hero
Mar 1, 2017
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The Goliath Stimmer adds 1D3 to his attacks, but if he rolls a natural 1 his attacks drop to 1 instead. So that's an 18% chance of failure.

So the argument is: If the Death Maiden fails her Initiative Test to retreat (which is also on a 1) that is also an 18% chance of failure. But if the target also gets to take an Initiative Test and can still do reaction attacks, against a target with Initiative 4 it becomes a 41% chance of failure. So the Stimmer wins.

The chances of the Death Maiden hitting and getting away without getting hit back are 49%. If the target is Initiative 3 the chances of getting away are 45%, which isn't much of a 'Hit and Run'.

Still not terrible, but not as good as it seems it's intended to be?
Not going to discuss it here but natural 1 on D3 isn't clear cut:
https://yaktribe.games/community/threads/roll-a-natural-1-on-a-d3.10589/

That aside I agree the skill(s) aren't as strong as I think it could be. But I don't see the wording foregoing the retreat actions reaction attack on the opponents I test. And trust me as an Escher player I would like it to.

I haven't had a game since getting HoChains or Blades so definitely need to see how useful or not some of the content is. Currently limited to theory crafting.
 
Jan 12, 2021
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How are you getting 18%?
Right, it's 16% isn't it? Sorry! I didn't check.

On the other hand, if the Death Maiden hits something and it's still standing afterward then either you're rolling very badly or your opponent is rolling really well, so you might as well forget about probability and just assume it's going to go wrong for you.

I started a Death Maiden with Hit and Run and a venom claw, and even using it 'wrong' as above it wasn't very useful. Mostly I forgot that she had it! She didn't really start to shine until I got her Spring Up. And the models come with venom claws and needle pistols as their only option, so you figure that's probably good, but I wish I had gone with two stiletto swords and Combat Virtuoso instead! :)
 
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Galtarr

Gang Hero
Mar 1, 2017
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Right, it's 16% isn't it? Sorry! I didn't check.

On the other hand, if the Death Maiden hits something and it's still standing afterward then either you're rolling very badly or your opponent is rolling really well, so you might as well forget about probability and just assume it's going to go wrong for you.

I started a Death Maiden with Hit and Run and a venom claw, and even using it 'wrong' as above it wasn't very useful. Mostly I forgot that she had it! She didn't really start to shine until I got her Spring Up. And the models come with venom claws and needle pistols as their only option, so you figure that's probably good, but I wish I had gone with two stiletto swords and Combat Virtuoso instead! :)
I think Id only consider hit and run on maybe a Death Maiden with Versatile weapons. As often you'd not worry about reaction attacks anyway and really I'd be banking on being 3" away from target. The D6 retreat means you'd end up 4-8" away and hopefully back in cover. Generally I'm more worried about charges leaving me exposed for ranged fire than I am about reaction attacks. Reckon Combat virtuoso and hit and run would be a good combo. Run out slice em good and fade back into cover.
 
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Ailric

Juve
Jan 4, 2019
11
3
3
Looks like we 180 degree turned here. I was basing on the wording that said before any attacks were made, in the retreat. This skill would only be useful with versatile as we are now reading it. I certainly hope that is not the case. The skill tree looked great, this would put it at near trash. Still, I want to get it right. Goliath skills tree seems to be the only one not garbage, contrary to posts from goonhammer and others.

anyone else with a different take?

Sorry BA. 16.666667 :) not sure why I spaced to 18

hit and run would be so so if versatile, but lightning reflexes is not going to help