N18 House of Chains (general discussion)

Prospects is a needless fighter class. We already have juves which are bottom tier. Seems to me that the devs never played the game. But the models themselves look good. I will probably buy a blister of these guys/gals and treat them as juves.

Stimmers remind me of DC Bane and not in a good way. Goliaths are already roided to the gills and doing more in that department is really unnecessary.
 
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While what I'm seeing from House of Chains definitely raises my eyebrows, I do appreciate what GW is trying to do - give every gang multiple options in each fighter slot (Champ or Stimmer? Prospect or Juve? Vatborn or Natborn or Unborn Ganger?) to really amp the customization options. Ultimately, it's not unlike how D&D is using its subclass system so not every Fighter or Wizard looks the same, and that's something that (with good balance) can be a real boon for the long term health of the game.

Prospects is a needless fighter class. We already have juves which are bottom tier. Seems to me that the devs never played the game. But the models themselves look good. I will probably buy a blister of these guys/gals and treat them as juves.

IMO Prospects are markedly better than Goliath Juves as they currently stand. Stats wise, they are "partially developed" Juves - while they have the same Mv, WS, BS, and I, they have the all important T4 and the ability to use real shooting weapons. The arc weapon is frigging insane - remember it also has a decent short range, upping BS isn't that expensive and the power of that shooting is ridiculous. I hope that rock saw is not as pricey as the Heavy Rock Saw, which I wouldn't risk on a fragile frame like a Juve/Prospect, but who knows.

Stimmers remind me of DC Bane and not in a good way. Goliaths are already roided to the gills and doing more in that department is really unnecessary.

I agree with the Stimmers are a bit silly, but they do give the Goliath something that's actually geared for CC in a world where Corpse Grinders exist. It drives our regular Goliath player crazy trying to play a close combat gang with Goliaths, since they are so slow and can get shot to pieces pretty fast without a huge credits investment. Ultimately, running a Goliath Champ as a beater rather than a Heavy Bolter platform is doing yourself a disservice in most cases (even though the Champ has crummy BS at the start).

His strat this season on my advice is to run Goliaths like Space Marines - Bolters and Big Guns first, relying on superior toughness to outlast the enemy, then going CC for cleanup. He still thinks it's counter intuitive, and I agree. Maybe Stimmers can change the equation, esp since they are not Brutes. Here's to hoping.
 
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While what I'm seeing from House of Chains definitely raises my eyebrows, I do appreciate what GW is trying to do - give every gang multiple options in each fighter slot (Champ or Stimmer? Prospect or Juve? Vatborn or Natborn or Unborn Ganger?) to really amp the customization options. Ultimately, it's not unlike how D&D is using its subclass system so not every Fighter or Wizard looks the same, and that's something that (with good balance) can be a real boon for the long term health of the game.



IMO Prospects are markedly better than Goliath Juves as they currently stand. Stats wise, they are "partially developed" Juves - while they have the same Mv, WS, BS, and I, they have the all important T4 and the ability to use real shooting weapons. The arc weapon is frigging insane - remember it also has a decent short range, upping BS isn't that expensive and the power of that shooting is ridiculous. I hope that rock saw is not as pricey as the Heavy Rock Saw, which I wouldn't risk on a fragile frame like a Juve/Prospect, but who knows.



I agree with the Stimmers are a bit silly, but they do give the Goliath something that's actually geared for CC in a world where Corpse Grinders exist. It drives our regular Goliath player crazy trying to play a close combat gang with Goliaths, since they are so slow and can get shot to pieces pretty fast without a huge credits investment. Ultimately, running a Goliath Champ as a beater rather than a Heavy Bolter platform is doing yourself a disservice in most cases (even though the Champ has crummy BS at the start).

His strat this season on my advice is to run Goliaths like Space Marines - Bolters and Big Guns first, relying on superior toughness to outlast the enemy, then going CC for cleanup. He still thinks it's counter intuitive, and I agree. Maybe Stimmers can change the equation, esp since they are not Brutes. Here's to hoping.
Getting always shot up while trying to enter cc is a good indicator for having too many good firing lanes.

Corpse Grinders? Idk anything about these guys apart from being new. If they really perform better in the brutish melee aspect than Goliath then it's another design error.
Necromunda has six neat House gangs which all have their own niche. Creating another "House Goliath" would be a waste of time and effort.
 
The only thing I really like from this article is that we'll get new plastic miniatures for the 6 core gangs. That's something I've been waiting for since the inception of N17. I'm happy that I'll be able to use them to represent smaller/bigger guys (compared to the basic fighters from the existing kits) even though somme conversions will be required.

I'm completely neutral towards the slaver guild miniatures. We knew they were coming (at some point), they look good, but they are FW resin so I don't care about them one bit.
Additions to the fluff I could take or leave. Some will probably be interesting, some will probably clash with how I envisioned things... all in all, it's mostly neutral to me.

Everything else I think will be bad for the game in the long run. I'll try to explain why I feel this way without getting too sumpy.

First, some players (especially new ones) already suffer from analysis paralysis when trying to build and equip their gang. Now (or, more accurately, 18 months from now), it seems that, on top of choosing which gang you want to play and how you want to equip your dudes, you'll have to choose between 6 fighters classes, choose between 3 base statline for each of your ganger, and then choose if you want to give them additional starting upgrades. That's a lot of complexity for very little added depth in my opinion, and a big-ass fence to entry that shouldn't be there.
And that very bland +1T masquerading as something flavourful and unique... Nope. Nope. Nope.

There is also some pretty obvious power (and complexity) creep going on. House gangs used to be your basic, simple choice (ideal for new players). Cult gangs/enforcers/venators were allowed to deviate from the norm a little and were not recommended as a player's first gang. Now, it seems those will become the simpler choice (until they get their own codex, that is).

The Muscle skill they showcased is quite flavourful to be honest, but... really? They are adding a house-specific skillset to each house gang? There was something elegant about each house being defined by a unique combination of basic building bricks. Adding uniquely shaped bricks to the mix completely wreaks that.
 
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Agree on all points. What this all is pointing to IMO is yet another new edition of Necromunda (N21?) that will rebuild the skeleton of the game, rather than gradually rearranging what Jervis and Rick built back in the 90s. Stuff like card play is almost irreparably broken currently, due to GW's overly-cautious support of the game, in and amongst the balance problems; GW knows but is clearly not addressing it because they have plans. I think this is a sign Necromunda has real legs, and they're going to rebuild it all as a full-blown "real" game, akin to Kill Team, rather than the normal Specialist-Game-With-Expansions, like Adeptus Titanicus or even Blood Bowl.
 
Yeah the one plus side to this is new plastics for the 6 house gangs, but in terms of gameplay I don't think new fighter classes were necessary. They do add some flavor though, and part of me can't wait to see what's in store for cawdor/ van saar/ delaque. Cause lets face it goliaths and orlocks don't strike me as particularly interesting. Escher stuff could go either way, i'd honestly like a cat or some creature on the sprue instead of a new type of ganger.
 
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Well, I like the models so I probaly going to buy them. I was planning on playing Goliath anyway. Will probaly buy all the extra house-gang stuff as it gives nice models and thus a good variety on the table.

I hate the book-bloat as it makes a jungle of books. I wait untill the dust settles and then buy the stuff that is actual still valid.
Or even just wait for the good stuff the community comes up with. In terms of the books, I'll do not make a company rich that is working very hard on all the wrong things. It is almost as GW is counting on the community to fix their mess.
 
Yeah... the crazy rapid 3 arc welder will have 1 model made 'cause it looks nice' but it has a very poor risk/reward ratio on a bs5 character. It probably should have been a template weapon. Running some cheaper buzz saw chaff on the other hand might be worth it.

'Cause the were announced at the same time - does anyone actually use Slaver Guild? They seemed like one of the weaker guild choices to me. Or at least with worse liabilities.
 
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Prospects clearly replace regular Juves, exactly what everybody was afraid of.

New models for the main gangs will be good but not buying more books. I'd rather spend my money on models, paints and other hobby stuff. If I do bother continuing with crapromunda I'll probably have to limit myself to at most 2 gangs probably Goliath and Escher.
 
I am hopeful and optimistic.
Yes, I think the Prospect weapon shown in the article is wacky to say the least and yes, I recognize that multiplying x3 all the basic choices will make things harder for new players... but all in all, I still am excited about the book and the turn that things are taking.

If it turns out to be rubbish with some sparse new idea we will roll back locally or house rule it to death.

It is not like there are many "official" events where a standard set of rules universally agreed upon is needed. All has been published is, at least in my group, to bee seen and approved by the Arbitrator before we implement it, so if in the ends there will be just a 25% of good ideas in the book it still is a win in my eyes.
 
I'm curious to find out where their planning on taking the setting in a narrative sense with the new series of books and I like the prospect models, but the stimmers can get back into whatever vat they crawled out of...
 
Looking at the cover art, it looks to me to be a portayal of civilian, ganger, ruling caste - I would guess this social cross-section will be a common cover-art format across these house books.


The trailer:
Seven seconds into the trailer vid, there is a section of text visible (word fragments in parentheses are my own best guess):

Not much at all to go on, but that reads to me like an ogryn hired gun. I would expect a few Goliath-themed or ex-Goliath characters like that as an effort to sell it to all players. The ogryn servitor sketch from the gangs book was labelled as "Sparky" so this may be an expansion of that character, either as a hired gun or maybe a named brute. But perhaps it's a sample background to go with expanded options for (or if we're unlucky, a rewrite of) the servitor ogryn. My money would still be on a hireling though.

At 21 seconds, the fat crowned Goliath image is I suspect the ganger-turned house master, Hectork Scrak. But whether he will be the king referred to previously, I wouldn't want to guess. Personally I dount think Slate Medena has been popular enough to warrant other "heroes" being released as a priority.


The models:


I'm not so sure that stimmers and prospects will be on the same sprue. For a standard box, there'd certainly be room for one stimmer and two prospects per sprue but if so then we have likely seen every weapon and head option these models get in plastic. Thorgor you're probably right but I'll hope for them being separated though, probably in packs of two identical sprues for £10-15.

As to those indeterminate guns, I'm in the grenade launcher camp; belt-fed is no great difference to drum-fed but maybe they get to re-roll failed ammo checks due to the amount they're carrying in those massive drums.
Wild speculation: maybe they're heavy grenade launchers that get Blast(5"), or rapid fire for absolute filth! Perhaps what stimmers get is access to twin-linked special weapons; that way they're still able to move and fire (the body pose doesn't suggest Fire(Double) to me), and also aren't treading on the toes of brutes like the stig and lugger with their big guns.

Meanwhile the standard renderiser doesn't have a circular saw blade at the tip, so it's possible that those melée weapons aren't unwieldy but probably are restricted to stimmers only.

Assuming the gang hierarchy set-up hasn't changed, I wonder if prospects won't be a form of hanger-on (that allow for 2 with one 'slot' maybe, or just have unique weapon access). Otherwise they could be a (very cheap) hired gun that have to pick from a small HWL as appropriate - fluff-wise we know they're trying to impress but there's nothing about a gang ever letting them in. Either of these options would place them below juves in a hierarchy.

Alternatively, maybe they're just a form of juve that evolves into a ganger. Again that would place them below the current juves. Maybe you will need half the gang members to be gangers and prospects going forward.


House Alliances:
To be honest, I'd expect this to largely be which clan houses can ally with each other (and why Orlock/Delaque won't happen), with perhaps a campaign event table to provide varied combinations: this week Delaque and Escher can't fight each other without being penalised in the post-game sequence or something. Or enmities, such that affected gangs get bonus XP for fighting their given rival-of-the-week. Maybe linked to the new scenarios, if those aren't just re-skins of existing ones.


Slave Ogryns, sub-faction gangs and future books:
The ogryn gang worries me, mostly because if they are an attempt to shift existing 40k kits then in my view it gets risky. Arcoflagelants for Cawdor and skitarii for Van Saar doesn't seem too bad at first blush, and maybe tempestus scions representing road-guard elites for Orlock. But if this is the case, what do we risk getting for the Delaque and Escher? I suppose admech sicarians are/were assassins so could fit in with Delaque's sneaky theme. For Escher however, all I can think of in a similar vein would be dark eldar wyches or harlequins.

Hopefully my fears are unfounded though. In which case Spafe's list seems pretty comprehensive; the only things I can think to add would be ash-waste/shanty gangs to Cawdor (at least until they get around to an ash waste expansion proper), with hunting parties or chem-soldiers for Escher, recycling the idea of gland-war veterans from Inquisitor.

But at that point, most every sub-faction feels to me like model options would be covered by a conversion kit for the parent house-gang models, if not just left to players. Redemptionists would only need more pointy hoods and nicer guns to go on the Cawdor plastics (if the Red Redemption is still wealthy now that Cawdor is the poorest clan house), while the Abominable Intelligences of Lord Otto Van Saar could be made by just sticking with helms on the existing Van Saar models. Which would make ogryn gangs (whether led by a human or a bone'ead) a real oddity and potentially disappoint fans of the other houses later on.

Bikers for house Orlock are unlikely until an ash waste setting, I think - if only because it reduces the amount of terrain you want on a 3D table and would be really awkward on the ZM tiles. Servitor squadrons could be a thing though, given the Lugger brute. Meanwhile their new champs might have servo-rigs as standard since industrial-tech seems to be their flavour now, while prospects could be mining helots with las-cutters, grav-guns, ore-grinders and the like.

I struggle for champion and prospect ideas with the other houses. Cawdor getting a preacher/deacon/zealot (with eviscerator!) would be fairly obvious and allow for a Redemtionist flavour to standard gangs, maybe prospects with tox bombs and/or chain glaives. Maybe inventor types for Van Saar with experimantal weaponry - hopefully just guns not available elsewhere, rather than random profiles or upgrades to range, armour pen etc. that can be bought (just because some combinations would be bound to end up hideously under-costed). Escher could perhaps get a beast handler that gets common access to phyrr cats and maybe an extended range on them, otherwise I've no clue. And all I can think of for Delaque would be access to a super-sneaky sniper gun or else a minor wyrd for their champion. And I really hope it's not another psyker, even if they get the Immortal Cult as a sub-faction gang.

One thing I do note is that there was some word-play on "spyre" on WarCom last year but with these new house books, anything spyrer-related has presumably been pushed back. My suspicion is that the brutes were all supposed to have forgeworld offerings either released or nearly so by now, and delays there have caused a knock-on effect (I just can't see plastic spyrers being financially viable, unfortunately).

Do people reckon these house books will follow the same order as the original releases? Or is there a consensus that Goliath was just the least popular house and are getting boosted first as a result?
What trailer are you referring to? I can’t seem to find it on Warhammer community...
 
Slave Guild will be replaced? Because their original rules from Perils have Toughness 3 or 4. These Ogryns should have Toughness 5? So the original guilds (and possibly criminal alliances?) were for testing purposes only? Guilds didn't even have point cost or specified the amount of fighters?
 
Slave Guild will be replaced? Because their original rules from Perils have Toughness 3 or 4. These Ogryns should have Toughness 5? So the original guilds (and possibly criminal alliances?) were for testing purposes only? Guilds didn't even have point cost or specified the amount of fighters?

I don't think the Slave Guild guys are Ogryns. I think they are just fat men. I may be wrong of course, but that's the impression that I got.

So I think Slave Ogryn gangs is something we haven't had much info on yet, where as the Slave Guild is something separate (ie: models for the guys from the Book of Peril)
 
Slave Guild will be replaced? Because their original rules from Perils have Toughness 3 or 4. These Ogryns should have Toughness 5? So the original guilds (and possibly criminal alliances?) were for testing purposes only? Guilds didn't even have point cost or specified the amount of fighters?
I do not think the Slave guild will be replaced, rather House Goliath might have a slightly different interaction with it than other houses (and I am guessing this trend will persist with the other houses, as in each House gang will have a special connection and 'exclusive' alliance variant with one of the Merchant guilds and a Noble house (so by the end of the Codexing cycle we'll have 6 Merchant guild alliances, 6 Criminal alliances, 6 Noble house alliances and 6 gang-specific special Guild alliances).
The Pit trainer exclusive hanger-on provides an effect pretty similar to the Slaver guild alliance (from what we've seen), so I am guessing Slavers will provide an 'Enhanced' alliance boon and different drawbacks to Goliaths, just to be relevant by comparison.

Thinking about it, Goliaths might get their own House favour table (pure speculation on my part - we haven't got any hints of this anywhere, I am just thinking the devs will probably want to integrate the new Prospects and Gene-smithing into the house favor rolls mechanic).
 
I don't think the Slave Guild guys are Ogryns. I think they are just fat men. I may be wrong of course, but that's the impression that I got.

So I think Slave Ogryn gangs is something we haven't had much info on yet, where as the Slave Guild is something separate (ie: models for the guys from the Book of Peril)
Ok, it was my impression they were ogryns based on the photo, but I have no idea. Still does not look like T3, even if they are not ogryns. Also, if you wanted to make a slave ogryn gang and no models were available, these guys could be used? They don't look completely different from what you imagine an ogryn slave gang would look like?