N18 House of Shadows

Sakara

Ganger
Tribe Council
Jan 30, 2015
157
191
83
Luleå, Sweden
"the NPE gang".
Whats NPE?

I can see the challange in that Delaque will have their turn off the lights and use photo goggles/infra sights.

However I dissagree that its a tax for other gangs to get the same equipment to counter pitch black as they are usefull for other things besides that. For example Smoke.

I really look forward to how and what the different psychic disciplines are. We might even see a soft errata on how psychic powers works.

As for Nacht-Ghouls I see them as kill-that-guy-specifically and a way to mess with gunlines/really dug in gangs. Since you wont have the backup of the rest of your gabg if you spring them to soon.
 
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EAfirstlast

Ganger
Aug 31, 2017
176
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Alexandria, VA, USA
Hold up, Van Saar have a universal +1 BS over Delaque, plus cheaper las weapon access and an armoured undersuit built in.

How on earth do Delaque scale better into a shooting gang?
Overwatch is one of the single best skills in the game and allows you to win shooting duels.

eventually your champions will have the same stats as a van saar's, but with better skill options
 

bthom37

New Member
Jun 6, 2021
3
4
23
I am excited for the House of Shadows book, although it will definitely have to stick the landing (like House of Faith did). It's easy to see how there could be an identity conflict between "lots of psykers" and "the spoopy night fighting spies". Gotta say the Ghuls and big guy are great models as well.
 

Sakara

Ganger
Tribe Council
Jan 30, 2015
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Luleå, Sweden
Overwatch is one of the single best skills in the game and allows you to win shooting duels.

eventually your champions will have the same stats as a van saar's, but with better skill options
Overwatch is quite easy to avoid since it can only activate when the enemy do an action. So you can run from cover to cover without getting shot. In a straight first turn duel sure its better but then again Van saar dosenth ave acces to longrifle and their longlas only reach 36" so yea in that specific scenario the delaque have the edge.

Also Vansaar gets Shooting and with that hipshooting. So a Van Saar champ with that and a Plasma gun trumphs a overwatch sniper.

What you really use overwatch for is to shut down or limit enemy movement in a specific area.
 

KA7777

Gang Champion
Jan 19, 2018
296
363
68
Canada
Whats NPE?

I can see the challange in that Delaque will have their turn off the lights and use photo goggles/infra sights.

However I dissagree that its a tax for other gangs to get the same equipment to counter pitch black as they are usefull for other things besides that. For example Smoke.

I really look forward to how and what the different psychic disciplines are. We might even see a soft errata on how psychic powers works.

As for Nacht-Ghouls I see them as kill-that-guy-specifically and a way to mess with gunlines/really dug in gangs. Since you wont have the backup of the rest of your gabg if you spring them to soon.
NPE is game design slang for "negative play experience." It usually refers to rules/gameplay which, regardless of whether they're overpowered, imbalanced, etc. are nonetheless an unpleasant experience for a player to play with/against.

Delaque gangs built with goggles+gunshrouds and the ability to instigate Pitch Black are an example of a NPE. They break all the targeting rules of the game, none of the stuff their opponent paid for works the way it was designed to when playing this single niche gang build, and unless you build to specifically counter them they will be able to target you and never receive return fire.
 

Sakara

Ganger
Tribe Council
Jan 30, 2015
157
191
83
Luleå, Sweden
NPE is game design slang for "negative play experience." It usually refers to rules/gameplay which, regardless of whether they're overpowered, imbalanced, etc. are nonetheless an unpleasant experience for a player to play with/against.

Delaque gangs built with goggles+gunshrouds and the ability to instigate Pitch Black are an example of a NPE. They break all the targeting rules of the game, none of the stuff their opponent paid for works the way it was designed to when playing this single niche gang build, and unless you build to specifically counter them they will be able to target you and never receive return fire.
check.

However I do belvie thats part of a campaign in that you adapt against your different opponents. And like I said earlier Photovisors and infrasights are not just for seeing in the dark and brings utiliy to the gang.

Also I ran that type of gang last dominion and sure it was powerful but I got my ass handed to me on several ocations. The gap where its really nasty is in normal gangfight where the only objective is to kill the other gang. In scenarios with objectives its still good but not autowin.
 

KA7777

Gang Champion
Jan 19, 2018
296
363
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Canada
However I do belvie thats part of a campaign in that you adapt against your different opponents. And like I said earlier Photovisors and infrasights are not just for seeing in the dark and brings utiliy to the gang.
Nah, googles really are just for that. No one in their right mind would outfit an entire gang with them just to counter the possibility of smoke. Smoke grenades dissipate on their own 66% of the time after the round they're thrown. You can also move around/through the smoked zones to get new angles.

Pitch Black affects the entire board. And doesn't it only go away on a roll of 6, when Delaque use their PB tactics card(s)? It's a faaaar more noxious experience than playing against smoke spam.

Infra-sights are good all-around items, but expensive. It's not realistic to outfit a full gang with them until the very latest stages of a campaign. Meanwhile, Delaque are getting a discount on their goggles, and can easily put them on every recruit if they plan to play around Pitch Black shenanigans.

If the PB rule was designed to simulate the lights "flickering" and, say, was rolled for at the start of every round, I'd be totally fine with it. The problem is that once it hits it's persistent and difficult to remove. The only complication for the Delaque player is managing to find a way to instigate the condition, depending on tactics cards, territories or whatever else (and house rules that may affect those things).
 

Sakara

Ganger
Tribe Council
Jan 30, 2015
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Luleå, Sweden
What scenarios would this not be autowin? I'm asking out of curiosity :p
All scenarios that has objective since you can play them as the other player can only can see 12".
In other scenarios you can just take cover and turtle until it lifts. Sure it will mess with your action economy but its still worth it.
There is really only Ambush (defending) and shootout that pitch black is an autowin or really fuckery for your opponent.
 

bthom37

New Member
Jun 6, 2021
3
4
23
NPE is game design slang for "negative play experience." It usually refers to rules/gameplay which, regardless of whether they're overpowered, imbalanced, etc. are nonetheless an unpleasant experience for a player to play with/against.

Delaque gangs built with goggles+gunshrouds and the ability to instigate Pitch Black are an example of a NPE. They break all the targeting rules of the game, none of the stuff their opponent paid for works the way it was designed to when playing this single niche gang build, and unless you build to specifically counter them they will be able to target you and never receive return fire.

I have a suspicion that Delaque might be becoming a niche gang when they release. Partly due to their origins so far as the "night fighting gang", and partly because they are getting a bunch of psyker stuff in previews so far. But even more so, I reread the Paths of Faith today, specifically the "Path of the Faithful". 3 of the acts are anti-psyker, and 1 of the remaining 3 is anti-night fight. That is a WAY too heavy skew, unless Delaque are going to be specifically arranged around less used mechanics, ie night fighting and psyker stuff and a hard counter was built in for them.

Of course, it could just also be bad game design. It is GW, after all.
 

stato

Juve
Feb 14, 2017
11
4
13
Newcastle upon Tyne, UK
I have only played against Pitch Black once and it felt horrible. I think however much of the issue come from the fact Delaque came late and players had already learnt how gangs work against other more normal gangs and have preferences on builds and play styles. Having to re-equip with night vision gear seems like such a waste in that respect.

Now i dont know how others play, but i suspect many play like my group with 'guns over gear' based builds. Very few players in my group ever spent cred on smoke or gas or equipping anything but top-tier weapons with sights. It was almost like a stand-off, 'ill not buy gas if you dont so we dont waste creds on respirators making the purchase of gas pointless in the first place'. So when Delaque came which you had to gear up against, gear which was otherwise useless, felt rubbish. It felt like a handicap, all the gangs are having to spend creds to counter 1 gang.

In the end Delaque got lumped with 'gamey' type players and when organising games they were not the first ones people went to.

I think if Delaque had come first many of their unique threats wouldn't be an issue, because it would have been something to deal with in the beginning and it would be normal, we are just going to have to work with it, but campaigns without Delaque were very different to those with Delaque, and i dont think that will change or can be said for any other gang?
 
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Sakara

Ganger
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I have only played against Pitch Black once and it felt horrible. I think however much of the issue come from the fact Delaque came late and players had already learnt how gangs work against other more normal gangs and have preferences on builds and play styles. Having to re-equip with night vision gear seems like such a waste in that respect.

Now i dont know how others play, but i suspect many play like my group with 'guns over gear' based builds. Very few players in my group ever spent cred on smoke or gas or equipping anything but top-tier weapons with sights. It was almost like a stand-off, 'ill not buy gas if you dont so we dont waste creds on respirators making the purchase of gas pointless in the first place'. So when Delaque came which you had to gear up against, gear which was otherwise useless, felt rubbish. It felt like a handicap, all the gangs are having to spend creds to counter 1 gang.

In the end Delaque got lumped with 'gamey' type players and when organising games they were not the first ones people went to.

I think if Delaque had come first many of their unique threats wouldn't be an issue, because it would have been something to deal with in the beginning and it would be normal, we are just going to have to work with it, but campaigns without Delaque were very different to those with Delaque, and i dont think that will change or can be said for any other gang?

We have almost the complete opposit of that. Our group uses all form of gear and granades for mobility and to mess up the opponent's turn economy. So its kinda natural to get gear to opose that.
I mean if you Goliath storms over the table you will want to get to higher ground fast with a grapplehook. If you use badzones respirators are your friend in many scenarios.
 
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stato

Juve
Feb 14, 2017
11
4
13
Newcastle upon Tyne, UK
Certainly I think the game as a whole looks like it would work better if everything is used, but there is so much variety in equipment and missions* that in a short campaign its likely you could spend creds on equipment that will never get used. Thats a different discussion really though and i dont want to go too off topic. Regardless, im interested to see what House of Shadows brings, psykers are always interesting, although a psyker acting through a host sound pretty scary.

*missions, campaign types, badzones, etc.
 

KA7777

Gang Champion
Jan 19, 2018
296
363
68
Canada
The thing is, "guns over gear" is the correct call most of the time and for most of a campaign (although I'm including armour and defensive equipment in that maxim, which I expect your group does as well).

You might play a game where your odd piece of equipment pays off. But your weapons will be useful in every game you play. Doesn't matter what scenario you choose/roll, or what random effects turn up, you're pretty much always going to be fighting something with at least some of your gangers.

Edit: And that reality also helps illustrate why night fight Delaque verge on being a gross build. As long as that Delaque player can reliably turn off the lights, all of their gear will always be valuable in all of their games. But the opponents who have to tech against night fight Delaque will only experience their gear being valuable in games against those Delaque players, and against everyone else the gear will be sunk credits.
 
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Sakara

Ganger
Tribe Council
Jan 30, 2015
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Luleå, Sweden
Certainly I think the game as a whole looks like it would work better if everything is used, but there is so much variety in equipment and missions* that in a short campaign its likely you could spend creds on equipment that will never get used. Thats a different discussion really though and i dont want to go too off topic. Regardless, im interested to see what House of Shadows brings, psykers are always interesting, although a psyker acting through a host sound pretty scary.

*missions, campaign types, badzones, etc.
I can see what you mean but since the gear we are talking about, infrasights and photogoggels, have other uses as well. Infrasights are one of if not the best sight in game with its ignoring 1 cover and can see through smoke. Photogoggles gives bonus against photonflash another great pice of weapon and negates smoke.

However you bring up a fair point about campaing lenght. We usually run 4 weeks 2 weeks 4 weeks for a total of 10 weeks and that allowes us to adapt before the adaptation becomes useless i.e. the campaing is almost over.

And yes Im really excited about how HoS is going to turn out. Delaque is getting there own "hat" that they have been missing if compared to the other gangs.
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
Tribe Council
Dec 29, 2017
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Why is pitch black a problem in relation to Delaque and why is it discussed here?

Any gang can use pitch black to their advantage?

  • Open Hive War Perils
  • Tactics (Hunter in the Dark, Darkness Descends)
  • Multiple Uprising campaign events
  • Generatorium (Territory)
  • Promethium Guild (alliance)
  • "And Lo His Gaze did Illuminate them!" (Path of the Faithfull, Cawdor)
  • Wide-eye (Chems, Escher)
  • Core Servitor (Hangers-on, Van Saar)
  • Several scenarios
 
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almic85

Cranky Git
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Oct 30, 2014
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Why is pitch black a problem in relation to Delaque and why is it discussed here?

Any gang can use pitch black to their advantage?

  • Open Hive War Perils
  • Tactics (Hunter in the Dark, Darkness Descends)
  • Multiple Uprising campaign events
  • Generatorium (Territory)
  • Promethium Guild (alliance)
  • "And Lo His Gaze did Illuminate them!" (Path of the Faithfull, Cawdor)
  • Wide-eye (Chems, Escher)
  • Core Servitor (Hangers-on, Van Saar)
  • Several scenarios

I suspect it’s because Delaque specifically get house access to cheaper wargear that circumvents the pitch black rules which lends itself to then taking advantage of it better than some other gangs.

That combined with the fact that the pitch black is a bad mechanic that needs to be erratad properly (note that the restriction on charging was removed in the new Hive War rulebook) makes it a poor play experience.

To be honest though I have been on the receiving end of this tactic from a Van Saar gang and it is exponentially worse than when Delaque try it.

What I do hope is that the new book leans into both wyrd powers and capturing gangers. I’d love to see more weapons and wargear that make it easier to capture gangers and then a mechanic that allows Delaque to do something with them other than sell them to the guilders, like create forced psykers.

All this talk about psykers also makes me wonder if their house specific skill tree is going to be replaced with a choice of psychic tables or if one of their skill choices will be to develop a psychic power. The psychic disciplines named are madness, delusion and darkness and any of those could have actual practical uses for a gang that hides in the shadows and trades in secrets.
 

Sakara

Ganger
Tribe Council
Jan 30, 2015
157
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Luleå, Sweden
What I do hope is that the new book leans into both wyrd powers and capturing gangers. I’d love to see more weapons and wargear that make it easier to capture gangers and then a mechanic that allows Delaque to do something with them other than sell them to the guilders, like create forced psykers.

All this talk about psykers also makes me wonder if their house specific skill tree is going to be replaced with a choice of psychic tables or if one of their skill choices will be to develop a psychic power. The psychic disciplines named are madness, delusion and darkness and any of those could have actual practical uses for a gang that hides in the shadows and trades in secrets.

Delaque already has Webbers to get a bonus on capturing fighters but they might get something else as well. Maybe some sort of manacles ala Enforcers.

I think the pyschic powers are the special thing for Delaque i.e. same as the Faith, Names, Alchemy etc for the other gangs. And I think they will work kind of Cawdors Faith in that you choose a discipline when you buy the fighter that can use it and there maybe be a tactic card that allows you to swap it for another at the start of a battle or something like that. But thats just pure speculation =)

What Im more interested in is how well the psycihc will synergies with the rest of the game. Since there is a to much of a good thing scenario. i.e. the whole Darkness discipline only lets you get 5 flavors of infiltrate or renaming of skills from the Cunning talents.

Asides from that its really interesting that we haven't got a tease on their unique skill tree. We might get some form of easier capture skill in there as well.
 
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KA7777

Gang Champion
Jan 19, 2018
296
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Canada
Why is pitch black a problem in relation to Delaque and why is it discussed here?

Any gang can use pitch black to their advantage?

  • Open Hive War Perils
  • Tactics (Hunter in the Dark, Darkness Descends)
  • Multiple Uprising campaign events
  • Generatorium (Territory)
  • Promethium Guild (alliance)
  • "And Lo His Gaze did Illuminate them!" (Path of the Faithfull, Cawdor)
  • Wide-eye (Chems, Escher)
  • Core Servitor (Hangers-on, Van Saar)
  • Several scenarios
I don't have time to go through these individually rn, but a cursory glance suggests you've simply listed as many things as you can think of that interact with the PB rules to inflate your list (which gives a falsified impression of the issue at hand).

Strike off every random upgrade with an opportunity cost that gives immunity against PB (And Lo His.., Wide-eye, etc.) and everything that's totally random (events, scenarios), they're not relevant.

All that really matters is a gang's ability to instigate Pitch Black at will. Without that ability a gang cannot build itself around fighting in PB.

So, much of the problem actually just comes down 'Darkness Descends' existing (and, to be fair, the impact of that card will depend on a gaming group's local interpretation of the rules for selecting/drawing tactics cards).

A Generatorium turns back on 1/3 times, which is easier to deal with. Darkness Descends lets the light back on a 6. A Core Servitor (which I only looked at for the first time just now) appears to instigate a permanent PB condition (so I can definitely buy that VS who are built this way are worse than Delaque who are).

The reason the discussion of this being a potential problem is happening here is because this is the discussion thread for the Delaque book, which may include more tactics or abilities that allow PB to be instigated at will.
 
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Sakara

Ganger
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Jan 30, 2015
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I don't have time to go through these individually rn, but a cursory glance suggests you've simply listed as many things as you can think of that interact with the PB rules to inflate your list (which gives a falsified impression of the issue at hand).

Strike off every random upgrade with an opportunity cost that gives immunity against PB (And Lo His.., Wide-eye, etc.) and everything that's totally random (events, scenarios), they're not relevant.

All that really matters is a gang's ability to instigate Pitch Black at will. Without that ability a gang cannot build itself around fighting in PB.

So, much of the problem actually just comes down 'Darkness Descends' existing (and, to be fair, the impact of that card will depend on a gaming group's local interpretation of the rules for selecting/drawing tactics cards).

A Generatorium turns back on 1/3 times, which is easier to deal with. Darkness Descends lets the light back on a 6. A Core Servitor (which I only looked at for the first time just now) appears to instigate a permanent PB condition (so I can definitely buy that VS who are built this way are worse than Delaque who are).

The reason the discussion of this being a potential problem is happening here is because this is the discussion thread for the Delaque book, which may include more tactics or abilities that allow PB to be instigated at will.
So you are saying that only your data points are valid and that we should disregard everything else. That's really cherry-picking if I ever saw it.

Your only argument is that your meta is not focus on the gear but only weapons and armor. By doing that your meta are not using the full with of the game and that's not bad if it works for you but the thing is there are counters, there are builds and tactics that can deal with pitch black. Just because you don't use them doesn't mean that they are useless and/or can only be used for pitch black.

You post blanket statements such as weapons are always useful in a game. That's the same argument as water is wet.
With the new rulesset from House of X you will not get new weapons on your gangers/juves if they are not promoted due to their limitation in weapons and gear. So as long as you follow the rule about not beeing able to get rid of weapons you will have creds over to get non weapon gear for your gang.

And as Topsy states there are plenty of stuff that gives pitch black. Even the tactic card Darkness decends is not a guarantee that the Delaque Gang will have Pitch Black since they might not draw it. That however depends on how you build your decks. IF you allow your players to choose cards then its a guarantee but not else.