N18 How does Blaze condition play out?

[Dingle-King]

Having played our first game, my slave ogryn leader threw a incendiary charge and it hit two enamie gangers.
the initial blast did no damage but they both got the blaze status.

now, here is where me and my friend were confused about how those two fighters go about activating and their sequence.

we played it out that once they were in blaze they went pinned (being hit).
I think we played that out wrong, as they took no damage (?) initially.
How does it play out for those two gangers that are ablaze?.

We had them take the wound for being blazed (Suffer a Strength 3, AP -1, Damage 1 hit).
if they saved, the could roll to put the flames out.
If not, they stayed alight and wait until next activation.

I tried googling this but most are nuances of this rule and don't explain everything.
Some were posts from 5 years ago.

I'm obviously missing somthing because lack of google results would tell me people figured it out.

Sorry, Thank you, Sorry.

 

[JayTee]

They were hit, so were pinned regardless of doing no damage (Note a few weapon traits like Gas don't cause pinning when hit, but incendiary charges absolutely do) so you got that right.

The best reference for how Blaze works is the free Trading Post PDF from the Warhammer Community downloads, that has the latest rules for nearly all weapon traits in the game.

For completeness you were partially right:

1. When activating they take an S3 AP-1 D1 hit
2. Then if they are Prone & Pinned they'll stand up
3. Then if they are Standing and Active they will roam 2D6 in a random direction, potentially falling off things. Once this is done they can voluntarily choose to go Prone & Pinned
4. If they are Standing and Engaged or Prone and Seriously Injured they'll not go anywhere
5. Once 2-4 is complete they will try and put the fire out, rolling a D6 +1 for each other Active friendly fighter within 1", +2 if they are Prone. If they roll a 6+ the fire goes out.
6. Activation ends. This means fighters on Fire will effectively have no Actions on their turn.

 

[Scabs]

For completeness you were partially right:

Psst...You left out the Blazing player's maniacal cackling. It's the best part!

 

[Deathwing1983]

They can voluntarily prone to get the bonus to put fire out.

However, can they voluntarily prone if they are engaged in melee?

 

[spafe]

However, can they voluntarily prone if they are engaged in melee?

Sadly no, you cannot go prone in combat.

Although, if you are standing and engaged, and on fire... you still make perfectly normal reaction attacks. So even if that goliath brute is on fire, dont charge him!

 

[Deathwing1983]

Thanks!

 

[Torahn]

I guess piggybacking off of this, my group's House Ruled Blaze, as its powerful even with one guy with just a Hand Flamer- and for Gangs like Cawdor you have so much of it that it just unfun to use.


Blaze: at the start of the fighter's actions the affected model becomes Standing (if possible - i.e. not forced to be prone/pinned by a condition like being Seriously Injured) and roll a Cool Test.
- if the model passes its Cool test: they can act as normal at -1 to all stat checks. They then must roll to put out the fire on a 6+ after performing their actions.
- or if the model passes its Cool test: they can use a Double Action to add +4 to rolling to put out the fire and go prone.
- if the model fails its Cool test: they must move 2D6 in random direction and lose their actions (rolling an initiative test to prevent falling if they contact a platform's edge). The model remains Standing (where possible). They then must roll to put out fire on a 6+.
- for every friendly within 1'' of the affected model when the roll to put out the fire is made add +1 to the roll (regardless of if friendlies are also affected by Blaze).
- if the model fails to put out the fire, they immediately take fire damage (Str 3, AP -1, Dam 1) and the Blaze condition carries onto their next turn.

"The fighter does not go prone automatically at the end of their turn as in the original rules. Fighters that normally start their turn prone (due to being shot by the ranged attack from a Flamer) still need to do the Cool Test to determine their actions, so won't automatically get the +4 to their dice roll for being prone. The purpose of models not automatically going prone is so they can perform two actions in their turn if they pass a Cool Test, otherwise all they could do would spend 1 action to stand up, and a second action to either shoot or move. ...And also to prevent the current silly rules where models start the turn prone, get up and run about, then go prone again. "

...Regardless, these rules are far too complicated for a Skirmish game like Necromunda. At least most games are like a half dozen models a side. But I'd be cringing at running that Meat! scenario from the Book of Ruin as Cawdor (tracking injuries alone on the 30-40 Cannibal models is bad enough).

 

[spafe]

ah, we never bother tracking injuries on cannibals, just if they are SI, they are dead and removed, if they arnt, they keep coming at ya...or maybe the other way round, if they are OOA they are dead, otherwise they keep coming, I forget. Eitehr way, we've played a few times and everytime it is a bloodbath that is over in a few turns to much laughter

 

[Dingle-King]

They were hit, so were pinned regardless of doing no damage (Note a few weapon traits like Gas don't cause pinning when hit, but incendiary charges absolutely do) so you got that right.

The best reference for how Blaze works is the free Trading Post PDF from the Warhammer Community downloads, that has the latest rules for nearly all weapon traits in the game.

For completeness you were partially right:

1. When activating they take an S3 AP-1 D1 hit
2. Then if they are Prone & Pinned they'll stand up
3. Then if they are Standing and Active they will roam 2D6 in a random direction, potentially falling off things. Once this is done they can voluntarily choose to go Prone & Pinned
4. If they are Standing and Engaged or Prone and Seriously Injured they'll not go anywhere
5. Once 2-4 is complete they will try and put the fire out, rolling a D6 +1 for each other Active friendly fighter within 1", +2 if they are Prone. If they roll a 6+ the fire goes out.
6. Activation ends. This means fighters on Fire will effectively have no Actions on their turn.

The PDF, of course *facepalm*.
Thanks alot JayTee, very apt avatar btw

Thank you to everybody else too.

 

[lastbrat]

1. When activating they take an S3 AP-1 D1 hit
2. Then if they are Prone & Pinned they'll stand up
3. Then if they are Standing and Active they will roam 2D6 in a random direction, potentially falling off things. Once this is done they can voluntarily choose to go Prone & Pinned
4. If they are Standing and Engaged or Prone and Seriously Injured they'll not go anywhere
5. Once 2-4 is complete they will try and put the fire out, rolling a D6 +1 for each other Active friendly fighter within 1", +2 if they are Prone. If they roll a 6+ the fire goes out.
6. Activation ends. This means fighters on Fire will effectively have no Actions on their turn.

Some things I still don't get (I'm slow on the uptake I guess):

• You say "if they are prone" in point 2. If they are hit by the blaze (point 1), aren't they automatically pinned, or does that hit not cause pinning?
• The way it is written in the latest rules, it looks like a list op 3 possibilities: 1. you start pinned, 2 you start standing, 3 you start as engaged. So, I do not know whether to read it as I think you suggest, which is that all of the 6 steps you list happen during one activation, OR, only one of the three starting conditions happens, which would mean that during the first activation, the fighter:
  • gets hit by the blaze
  • either gets pinned by the blaze hit and then gets to stand back up and may attempt to put the fire out standing, OR does not get pinned, and then his initial state is depending on what happened before (in the above case, he would be pinned by the grenade hit)
  • he may try to put the fire out standing
  • his activation ends.
• In his next activation, he gets hit again, and, since he started standing, he either gets pinned by the blaze hit again, putting the fighter in a never ending loop, where he never gets to run 2D6", or does not get pinned by the blaze hit, and gets must run 2D6", and only then choose to go prone and pinned and put the fire out. If he does not succeed, then the next round repeats the process.
• This interpretation sounds silly if the blaze hit indeed causes pinning, because of the loop where you never get to starting condition nr 2, but I do not see the word "then" which you use in 2 and 3, in the original wording of the rules, hence my hesitation. It would only make sense if the blaze hit did not cause pinning.
• If the blaze hit causes pinning, then why do they even say in the first bullet "If prone and Pinned, the fighter immediately becomes Standing and Active...", instead of just saying "the fighter immediately becomes Standing and Active"?
• If the list in the rules would be a list of things that happen in sequence, why is the third bullet "If standing and Engaged or Prone and Seriously injured" the third in the list, when, clearly, it should be the first, becuase it excludes the previous two points entirely, so cannot be executed after nr 1 and 2?

 

[TopsyKretts]

This should be fairly easy!

1. Suffer S3 AP-1 hit.
2. Move:
   • If Engaged or Seriously Injured, no move is made. --> Go to step 3.
   • If Pinned, become Active.
   • If Active, move 2D6" in a random direction.
     • Movement stops if contacting impassable terrain.
     • If within 0.5" of an edge, pass an Initiative test to avoid falling.
     • If moving beyond an edge, fall down.
   • At the end of this move, the fighter can choose to become Pinned.
3. Roll a 6+ to put out flames (with modifiers).
   • +2 if Pinned.
   • +1 per friendly Active fighter within 1".
4. Then the activation ends.

Notes:

• Pitch Black: Remain revealed (cannot become Hidden).
• Cannot make Reaction attacks.

Vehicles have a different system due to the nature of vehicles vs fighters.

 

[lastbrat]

This should be fairly easy!

1. Suffer S3 AP-1 hit.
2. Move:
   • If Engaged or Seriously Injured, no move is made. --> Go to step 3.
   • If Pinned, become Active.
   • If Active, move 2D6" in a random direction.
     • Movement stops if contacting impassable terrain.
     • If within 0.5" of an edge, pass an Initiative test to avoid falling.
     • If moving beyond an edge, fall down.
   • At the end of this move, the fighter can choose to become Pinned.
3. Roll a 6+ to put out flames (with modifiers).
   • +2 if Pinned.
   • +1 per friendly Active fighter within 1".
4. Then the activation ends.

Notes:

• Pitch Black: Remain revealed (cannot become Hidden).
• Cannot make Reaction attacks.

Vehicles have a different system due to the nature of vehicles vs fighters.

The way you rewritten it, is is definitely easier to follow. I wish the rulebook was written more like this, but it isn't. You only did not answer my question of the blaze hit causes pinning, but I assume it does?

 

[TopsyKretts]

Thanks! Me too wish the rules were written more organized (and more correctly), which is partially why I rewrote every single rule in the game (including rulebook)
Notes:

• A lot of special rules and exceptions for avoid being Pinned. Some special rules ignore Blaze altogether!
• The possibilities of Pinned, Standing and Engaged aren't mutually exclusive. Engaged is in fact Standing. To differentiate, use active vs engaged. Blaze doesn't care much if the target is pinned or active.
• When we talk about Blaze, it's not really a "hit" in normal sense, so no pinning. It's just an effect similar to an attack or a hit that can cause a wound. There's no pinning from it. 6+ to avoid blaze, or voluntarily go pinned to increase to 4+ None of these 2 only options are never ending. Regardless of Pinned or Active, Blaze fighter will move 2D6" involuntarily. Only way to stop move is being SI or Engaged.

 

[JayTee]

Some things I still don't get (I'm slow on the uptake I guess):

• You say "if they are prone" in point 2. If they are hit by the blaze (point 1), aren't they automatically pinned, or does that hit not cause pinning?
• The way it is written in the latest rules, it looks like a list op 3 possibilities: 1. you start pinned, 2 you start standing, 3 you start as engaged. So, I do not know whether to read it as I think you suggest, which is that all of the 6 steps you list happen during one activation, OR, only one of the three starting conditions happens, which would mean that during the first activation, the fighter:
  • gets hit by the blaze
  • either gets pinned by the blaze hit and then gets to stand back up and may attempt to put the fire out standing, OR does not get pinned, and then his initial state is depending on what happened before (in the above case, he would be pinned by the grenade hit)
  • he may try to put the fire out standing
  • his activation ends.
• In his next activation, he gets hit again, and, since he started standing, he either gets pinned by the blaze hit again, putting the fighter in a never ending loop, where he never gets to run 2D6", or does not get pinned by the blaze hit, and gets must run 2D6", and only then choose to go prone and pinned and put the fire out. If he does not succeed, then the next round repeats the process.
• This interpretation sounds silly if the blaze hit indeed causes pinning, because of the loop where you never get to starting condition nr 2, but I do not see the word "then" which you use in 2 and 3, in the original wording of the rules, hence my hesitation. It would only make sense if the blaze hit did not cause pinning.
• If the blaze hit causes pinning, then why do they even say in the first bullet "If prone and Pinned, the fighter immediately becomes Standing and Active...", instead of just saying "the fighter immediately becomes Standing and Active"?
• If the list in the rules would be a list of things that happen in sequence, why is the third bullet "If standing and Engaged or Prone and Seriously injured" the third in the list, when, clearly, it should be the first, becuase it excludes the previous two points entirely, so cannot be executed after nr 1 and 2?

I think I see your confusion. The 'hit' from the Blaze condition does not causing pinning, the rules refer you to pg124 which is the 'Resolve Hits' section of the rules whereas the portion of the Shooting rules that causes Pinning is pg117 and the 'Make the Hit Roll' section which is before and separate to the 'Resolve Hits' section.

There are a few instances in the game where you suffer hits that do not cause pinning. Only Shooting attacks (almost always) cause Pinning, this also causes people to wonder if Versatile attacks should cause Pinning (They don't, they're Close Combat attacks at a range).

 

[TopsyKretts]

Funny thing about Blaze, if your entire gang is burning together like candles on a birthday cake, don't go pinned as they can still help each other put the fire out.

 

[lastbrat]

Only Shooting attacks

That's what I thought, but then there is also pinned by falling, but that IS specifically mentioned in the falling rules though, and nothing was said in the blaze, plus the title "Hit fighters become pinned" on page 117 is confusing too, even though that paragraph is about shooting...

 

[MusingWarboss]

Funny thing about Blaze, if your entire gang is burning together like candles on a birthday cake, don't go pinned as they can still help each other put the fire out.

“Drop and roll, drop and roll!!! Not you Gary, help put us out first.”

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

Putting the fire out is almost entirely redundant because it's very unlikely the blazing fighter will end next to a friend after the panic run.

I much prefered the N17 rules for blaze, it was so much more balanced. One notable difference was fighters attempted to out the fire out before panicing, which meant it actually was possible to move fighters in to assist.

 

[TopsyKretts]

Putting the fire out is almost entirely redundant because it's very unlikely the blazing fighter will end next to a friend after the panic run.

I much prefered the N17 rules for blaze, it was so much more balanced. One notable difference was fighters attempted to out the fire out before panicing, which meant it actually was possible to move fighters in to assist.

That's why they stand in a close knit circle. Like candles on a birthday cake!

 

[Kiro The Avenger]

You can move through friendlies though so that doesn't get you very far ;(