Because a Corpse grinders scary mask is as useful as a chocolate fireguard against a blast detonating 1mm in front of them.Why Blast when you can Fast Shot and fire that 2+ to hit lascannon twice!
N18 How would you "fix" Van Saar?
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As an addendum to my earlier suggestion, I'd also suggest knocking the price of a regular undersuit down to 15cr.
Lots of interesting ideas in here. I like how many solutions people bring to the table. Having another look at the hotshot pack, it really is garbage. Nobody is going to chose to make their weapons unstable - even if the statistical likelihood is low of it actually kicking in. Especially when you have all that tasty plasma.
And yeah... rad weapons need a serious overhaul.
I'm a bit less sure about some of the more nitty-gritty discussions around BS, because at that point you're almost "fixing" the game rather than a gang! The problem with lowering BS is that you can level it back up easily.
The problem with hiking prices is that you get loaaaads of money in a typical Necromunda campaign, so that is an even more temporary constraint than BS3! But as I said, I do like how much everyone is tinkering.
You are totally correct. This is how to play Van Saar.
The problem is that Van Saar often attract players who lack the sort of courtesy and common sense that is required for exercising this sort of restraint. Obviously not all Van Saar players are like that. But a certain kind of player are attracted to them *because* they are broken. In a public setting it causes a real issue for the enjoyment of all the other players.
@MyLonelyDeer pointed out, that if you don't play them spammy they're actually weak. I think this shows another problem with relying on other players' restraint. There's no real consensus about what level of cheese is acceptable!
I think what you're suggesting works fine in a tight-nit narratively focused gaming group though.
And yeah... rad weapons need a serious overhaul.
I'm a bit less sure about some of the more nitty-gritty discussions around BS, because at that point you're almost "fixing" the game rather than a gang! The problem with lowering BS is that you can level it back up easily.
The problem with hiking prices is that you get loaaaads of money in a typical Necromunda campaign, so that is an even more temporary constraint than BS3! But as I said, I do like how much everyone is tinkering.
You are totally correct. This is how to play Van Saar.
The problem is that Van Saar often attract players who lack the sort of courtesy and common sense that is required for exercising this sort of restraint. Obviously not all Van Saar players are like that. But a certain kind of player are attracted to them *because* they are broken. In a public setting it causes a real issue for the enjoyment of all the other players.
@MyLonelyDeer pointed out, that if you don't play them spammy they're actually weak. I think this shows another problem with relying on other players' restraint. There's no real consensus about what level of cheese is acceptable!
I think what you're suggesting works fine in a tight-nit narratively focused gaming group though.
Don't do crystal.
It has a potential use with a hotshot pack and crystal together for a secondary weapon but by then why not just get a plasma pistol?
It has a potential use with a hotshot pack and crystal together for a secondary weapon but by then why not just get a plasma pistol?
Only if they share blunder poles.if you are throwing out las guns , cawdor would like them please
For me there are 2 big problems with Van Saar. The first problem is the game designers leaned too heavily into the shooting theme. They are a tech gang, I would assume they could have close combat tech as well. When they announced the upgrades box I was really hoping for some close combat elements to be added to the gang. Maybe a dedicated cc champ and a light skirmishes juve that used pistols and cc weapons. Instead we got a champ that has bs 2+ and we 4+ and is slow and clumsy. He has one item that can make him ok at cc but itvis expensive and he is still much better suited to shooting. Then we got the fast skirmishes juve, but they gave him better bs and crap ws, and gave him access to lasguns. On top of this they gave all of our juves access to cheap Las guns. All of this tends to punish anyone who tryst to move away from tbe Van Saar shooting theme.
The second problem is a lack of equipment options. The problem with plasma is, what else would you want to take? They have very limited special weapons options. The plasmagun is actually their cheapest option. They have no cheap options on their list like Gernade Launchers, long rifles, Boltguns, or needle rifle. (I wish they had the longlas in their house list.) If rad weapons were better or gravguns were cheaper these could be options.
On top of this the lasgun is just way more efficient than any basic weapon they can choose. I would give the las carbines and suppression lasers access to hotshot packs to make them more appealing. A str 4 rapid-fire gun for 40 credits or a str 5 shotgun for 60 credits sound like much more appealing options.
If Van Saar had more interesting options you would see less plasma/ lasgun spam lists. If they had more varied fighter types you would see less gunlines.
The second problem is a lack of equipment options. The problem with plasma is, what else would you want to take? They have very limited special weapons options. The plasmagun is actually their cheapest option. They have no cheap options on their list like Gernade Launchers, long rifles, Boltguns, or needle rifle. (I wish they had the longlas in their house list.) If rad weapons were better or gravguns were cheaper these could be options.
On top of this the lasgun is just way more efficient than any basic weapon they can choose. I would give the las carbines and suppression lasers access to hotshot packs to make them more appealing. A str 4 rapid-fire gun for 40 credits or a str 5 shotgun for 60 credits sound like much more appealing options.
If Van Saar had more interesting options you would see less plasma/ lasgun spam lists. If they had more varied fighter types you would see less gunlines.
All thier basic weapons are decent and even hot shotting them has a low pricetag compared to the boltgun so your basic weapons fire still holds up well. I agree long las rifles should be on there however.
Try not to think of each weapon as a game winner on its own. Thier other house special weapons are either alright or pretty darn good for only a small increase over the plasma gun. Melta anything is awesome. The grav gun is hard hitting and truly exceptional at controling the battlefield. Lasting effects that slow down corpse grinders and are blast so ignore scary masks great.
Now rad weapons are trickier. STR 2 is meh to unhurt gangers but it has respectable AP. Where the cannon and gun come in is thier handing out flesh wounds. A flesh wound makes your target that much weaker and ready for a juve with a puny lasgun to take them out. They may not kill outright but they make it so much easier for the other members of the gang to get kills. They are team weapons. The Rad phage effect takes effect after the hit is resolved as well so not only are they at least pinned they could suffer a wound on Str 2( it occasionally happens) and potential take a additional flesh wound. So a normal ganger with T 3 could potentially take two flesh wounds from a single hit. Or a champion or leader gets a flesh wound regardless of actually taking a wound. used well they are great attrition weapons. Plus the cannon has Blast 5.
As a Van Saar player I definitely don't plasma gun spam. We have multi meltas...
(Note: always take a flamer or template weapon to deal with infiltrators, Falsehoods and the rare melee peep that manages to make it through the wall of gunfire. Someone said Van Saar need close combat options... Hand flamers are our close combat option - that's about the closest any real Van Saar wants to get to close combat!)
(Note: always take a flamer or template weapon to deal with infiltrators, Falsehoods and the rare melee peep that manages to make it through the wall of gunfire. Someone said Van Saar need close combat options... Hand flamers are our close combat option - that's about the closest any real Van Saar wants to get to close combat!)
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Yes and no. When it comes to Van Saar's expanded las arsenal, the lascarbines and suppression lasers are rather lacking for what you're paying for short of tinkering around with specific Tech skills, not least of which given their lack of access to hotshot laspacks (I suppose this can also extend to any non-heavy las weapon such as the longlas, mind you - I'm automatically assuming that the power packs used by lascannon and mining lasers are "hotshot" by default). Framing that properly if house-ruling is permitted, a hotshot lascarbine at 40 credits could very well be a D1 bolter more or less [10"/24" +1/- S4 AP1 D1 Am6+ Rapid(1)], or a hotshot suppression laser at 60 credits could be seen as a discount low-powered plasmagun on single shot when in short burst [8"/16" +1/- S5 AP1 D2 Amm6+ Knockback]. Then you might see more use out of them and less reliance on going to the trading post or jumping straight to plasma for firepower upgrades.
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allowing to hot-shot van'saars unique las weaponry could make our gaming experience much better tbh -_-
From a listbuilding POV, I'd really like to see a special weapon or two that was under 100 points. Whether it's some sort of las-boltgun that cost 50-60 points, or just the ability to hotshot more house weapons as a few others have suggested, it would at least offer interesting alternatives to loading up on plasmaguns.
Any spam options in any gang are usually bad. They either turn you in to "that guy", the option is just bad or makes it boring. A trio of meltas is just as knarly as plasma spam and even mass rad gun templates handing out flesh wounds like no tomorrow is nasty to.
Having the self control to make your gang members individual is a good method of "fixing" any gang.
People hate on plasma spam, but our other options are both more expensive and less effective. If the grav gun and rad gun cost less than a plasma gun (as they're definitely less effective) and we had access to the long las, I think many players would be likely to take them.
To be honest anyone in a Van Saar gang that can use a long las has Tools of the Trade so have no problem fielding one and it is a relatively easy rarity roll at the Trade Post so not having native access to one is just an annoyance to me.
The rad gun should be used more I agree. People should compare it to the flamer rather than the plasma gun. It is template so equal there, cheaper than the flamer by four lasguns and its special trait activates on its own at the same probability. Where it differs is that a blazing victim wanders around randomly (summing up) and gets a S3 hit while a rad phaged target suffers a actual stat penalty which makes one of those four lasguns a much greater threat to the target. Both ignore hungry hungry hippos mask Voodoo and other targeting priority issues while the flamer adds a bit of chaos the radgun potentially adds four lasguns.
N.B. the four lasguns is off the top of my head I think Van Saar get a 5 credit discount.
The one person who would like access to the longlas but doesn't have access to tools of the Trade is the Tek specialist. There are just not any affordable special weapons for him to take.
