N18 How would you "fix" Van Saar?

[ChapterAquila92]

The one person who would like access to the longlas but doesn't have access to tools of the Trade is the Tek specialist. There are just not any affordable special weapons for him to take.

Um... hotshot lasgun with telescopic sight? It's admittedly not a perfect substitute (it's in fact nearly 250% more expensive), but it would fill that niche in a pinch.

On another note, Tech skills and Archeoteks. The fact that archeoteks are the only gang fighters who can take them as Primary skills is hampered by the fact that they're not particularly useful on them. Three are just bad all around - Cold and Calculating, Mental Mastery, and Rad-Phaged - which leaves you with Gadgeteer (which relies on you taking weapons with the Plentiful trait), Weaponsmith (which relies on you not taking weapons with the Plentiful trait but could make them Plentiful if they weren't Scarce), and Photonic Engineer (which is absolutely reliant on you taking Las weapons). Short of waiting for your other gangers to die or going to the trading post however, Archeoteks have few options for ranged weapons beyond Pistols and the Rad Beamer, and unlike with the Augmek they can't just choose a Shooting skill like Gunslinger for a guns akimbo build.

At best they function as glorified Savant skill monkeys if they aren't tinkering with plasma or las weapons.

 

[Psyan]

The one person who would like access to the longlas but doesn't have access to tools of the Trade is the Tek specialist. There are just not any affordable special weapons for him to take.

100%

 

[ChapterAquila92]

Another thing to consider is that Van Saar pays a premium for fighters with a high Intelligence stat that rarely ever gets used in general play unless you're playing with door terminals or loot caskets (my group plays with neither). As the tech-savvy gang, you'd think that there ought to be far more interplay with the stat than what's currently available, be it with house-specific gear or skills. Hell, Escher gangs have a better time using the stat for Chem-Synth than anything that Van Saar has access to.

That of course might also require a bit of rework where the base game is concerned however.

 

[Covenant]

I have the feeling that if you don't use the whole toolbox, like Sector Mechanicus AND Ash Wastes AND Zone Mortalis AND missions with doors and loot caskets, there will always be one gang that has a benefit and one or two gangs with an uphill battle. -> The arbitrator should have that in mind.

I have played ZM-Games with Ogryns vs. Van Saar and SM-Games incl. doors with CGC vs. Cawdor - both surprisingly Close games.
The most broken combinations struggle a lot if you don't have the right terrain. Especially Van Saar gangs need the firearc.

But to be honest we didn't manage to start a campaign at all (COVID, baby, Job...) at all. So I can't speak for the longer run with more abilities. ;-)

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Another thing to consider is that Van Saar pays a premium for fighters with a high Intelligence stat that rarely ever gets used in general play unless you're playing with door terminals or loot caskets (my group plays with neither). As the tech-savvy gang, you'd think that there ought to be far more interplay with the stat than what's currently available, be it with house-specific gear or skills.

That of course might also require a bit of rework where the base game is concerned however.

Absolutely agree. Intelligence is one of the most ignored stats I see. My group does play with doors but most of them ignore the loot caskets they put out, untill I roll a ammo cache and reload a scarce nasty weapon..., They usually just bash the door open.

 

[daveh]

a small mind is blessed by the empraah

 

[ChapterAquila92]

a small mind is blessed by the empraah

Ancient weapons and hokey religions are no match for a hotshot laspistol at your side, kid.

 

[WCWill]

Another thing to consider is that Van Saar pays a premium for fighters with a high Intelligence stat that rarely ever gets used in general play unless you're playing with door terminals or loot caskets (my group plays with neither). As the tech-savvy gang, you'd think that there ought to be far more interplay with the stat than what's currently available, be it with house-specific gear or skills.

That of course might also require a bit of rework where the base game is concerned however.

I'm currently in a Lost Zone campaign and the increased importance of loot crates as a means to access your house list is brilliant for making intelligence feel useful.

 

[Tk421wayayp]

Depending on how the new rules change flesh wounds i.e. serious injuries also stacking flesh wounds, rad weapons may become significantly more threatening........more so if rad phage trait gets a buff......

 

[Lunarcruiser]

T 3 is average so a single rad flesh wound give the fighter T2 so the big standard autoguns and lasguns now wound them on a 3+ so as a team player effect rad is quite good. Should the injured ganger become seriously injured and later recovered they are T1 after the second flesh would.
Would you keep a T1 ganger in the fight?

 

[DamianK]

Depending on how the new rules change flesh wounds i.e. serious injuries also stacking flesh wounds, rad weapons may become significantly more threatening........more so if rad phage trait gets a buff......

T 3 is average so a single rad flesh wound give the fighter T2 so the big standard autoguns and lasguns now wound them on a 3+ so as a team player effect rad is quite good. Should the injured ganger become seriously injured and later recovered they are T1 after the second flesh would.
Would you keep a T1 ganger in the fight?

To be honest, this just makes combat deadlier in general, I don`t think it makes rad weapons particularly more effective than others.

Basic problem remains the same as always - why take weak rad gun and have a mediocre damage output with 50% chance to do additional flesh wound, when for similar price you can take a regular plasma gun which can just blast the fighter immidiately off the board. Unless of course they somehow buff the rad phage (friendly reminder that the rad phage used to always apply flesh wound on hit, which was later nerfed by GW because apparently it was so OP).

 

[Psyan]

I'd be pleased with mediocre damage output from Rad weapons, but S2 doesn't even give us that.
I'd suggest either buffing Rad weapons to S3 or making them substantially less expensive, perhaps both. The Rad Gun and the Rad Cannon need to be good enough to be seen as viable alternatives to the other Special and Heavy weapons.
Regarding the Rad Beamer, buff the single shot mode to S6 and clarify that the RF mode can inflict multiple flesh wounds and it's good to go.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Maybe increase rad by a point of strength but cost wise for the price of a flamer, which is the gangs alternative special template gun, you get the pinning template with a special trait that activates on the same dice roll and enough credits spare to purchase four lasguns for their mates.
Ran cannons still are S2 grrr. But 5" blast pie plate with Van Saar Ballistic Skill good.
A template weapon should be compared to another template weapon. A plasma gun may be more killy but it has a entirely different role to a template weapon. A knife has a different use to a ladle or a whisk.

The latest hints from Warhammer Community on the new core rule book also make the Rad trait nastier. If a SI also adds a flesh wound the rad trait added one will remove any T3 fighter from the equation.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

My rad cannon champions almost always top the plasma gun/grav gun/meltagun champions in number of kills over a campaign. Mopping up flesh wounded enemy fighters left right and centre mid to end game stages.
The kill stealing git.

 

[Psyan]

My rad cannon champions almost always top the plasma gun/grav gun/meltagun champions in number of kills over a campaign. Mopping up flesh wounded enemy fighters left right and centre mid to end game stages.
The kill stealing git.

That's comparing apples and oranges, which you (wisely!) advised against in your previous post. To compare apples to apples, we'd want to compare the Rad Cannon to the Missile Launcher.
However, anecdotally, it was interesting to read.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

@Psyan. Not a comparison. Just whining about the kill stealing git robbing XP from thier mates who put in most of the work.

 

[ChapterAquila92]

Absolutely agree. Intelligence is one of the most ignored stats I see. My group does play with doors but most of them ignore the loot caskets they put out, untill I roll a ammo cache and reload a scarce nasty weapon..., They usually just bash the door open.

Hell, Escher has better prospects of taking meaningful stuff (wargear or skills) that require Intelligence rolls than anything that Van Saar has access to, and that's mainly just with a 15cr Chem-Synth.

In my opinion, Gadgeteer and Photonic Engineer should include clauses about being able to change the state of affected weapons with a successful Intelligence check.

While on the subject of "Tech" skills, I don't really see much justification for Cold & Calculating or Mental Mastery (Rad-Phaged is at least fluffy, especially on an old Archeotek, though not a "skill" worth taking seriously). Neither C&C or MM really fit the tech-heavy theme, and probably could do with being replaced by something else that fits the Van Saar theme, such as the ability to ignore penalties to Intelligence checks made when interfacing with tech (door terminals especially), or the ability to re-roll failed Unstable checks (surely, Van Saar gangers should be able to learn how to safely handle plasma grenades and cycle heat sinks whenever possible?).