Thank you both for your feedback. I've had some time to process it and amend the ruleset. My responses to the points raised are as follows:
(Trollmeat) Seem very strong.
Yes, on closer inspection some things were a bit rushed. In a general sense they do present some areas for abuse, and with everything effectively being Ld10 the overall gang would be very powerful. I wanted to get this posted for critique before I went away on holiday. It is not quite as refined as my Ash Waste Nomads ruleset. Ready for the changes:
Scenarios
(Tomcaet) Is the scenario limit intentional? When choosing a scenario, Outlaws can generally still choose a Lawful scenario. Having this lax also makes choosing custom scenarios simpler, if somebody wishes.
Not intentional. Cults may now roll on either the standard or outlaw table, like any other gang.
Leadership
(Trollmeat) While it is thematic for the brood to be psychically linked, letting all models test to unpin at the start of the turn and use Ld10 means that each member of the brood may as well just automatically pass the unpin test (the chance of 11+ on 2D6 is 8.33%). With Hybrids also having an Ld10 it means that this gang would rarely fail a bottle test.
Don't forget that the test to unpin is on Initiative, not Ld. That said, the Ld thing is too powerful. The Brood Telepathy rule has been changed so that instead of always using the Hierarch’s Ld, cult members may now re-roll a failed nerve, fear or terror test if within 8” of the Hierarch. Cult members just use their normal Ld. The Hierarch's Ld has also been changed to 9.
Income
(Trollmeat) Might need to reduce the effectiveness of the lair territory.
Dropped their income down a bit. Instead of having D6x10 + 2D6x10 + 3D6x10 on their Cult Lair territory, they now have D6x10 + D6x10 + 2D6x10. I also dropped their free weapons down from fives to threes on that entry. You may be interested to know, when I set up the table, I calculated the average income of a House gang based on 5 territories, then for the Cult I (roughly) calculated the average income for a Settlement and 3 Outlaw territories and made the Cult Lair table make up the remainder with its average income, including the profit that could be made from selling weapons from the ‘2’ result. The Cult Lair table was actually perfectly balanced money-wise with a House gang, however I think that in hindsight the ‘free juves’ they get from three potential sources must be balanced out with sub-average income.They should generate some warm bodies, but will also use their Lair territory to assist with equipping them.
(Trollmeat) I'd be tempted, if the gang is starting with up to 50% Hybrids, to just have them Outlaws to begin with, and use a modified Redemptionist Territory chart for their income, with all captured territories being looted.
I think they should be differentiated from other gangs, so not to reuse tables and mechanics from other areas, hence the Cult Lair territory. I also see them as having one foot in the Lawful camp and one foot in the Outlaw camp from the outset, given the nature of the cult. They are, after all, Badlands dwellers who infiltrate civilised settlements.
Outlaw Territories
(Tomcaet) When Outlawed, do they halve the income from Lawful territories before washing, if they get their claws on those?
Yes, that was the intention, but it slipped through the net. I have added it under
Captured Territories. Also, when Outlawed, a cult now loses all its territories except its lair. This was the intention from the start, but perhaps was not clear. Again, being Outlaw should not be desirable for the cult – one of their driving themes should be to avoid becoming outlawed.
Recruitment
The Cult can gain new members by rolling a 6 on their Settlement, a 6 on their Cult Lair or by implanting captives. However the inclusion of the
Fresh Blood rule means these are the only ways the cult can recruit new members. This will mean that being Outlawed will be a real disadvantage, as they will lose the Setltement, further limiting their recruitment until the can pay off their status. Helps balance against their income and overall power.
Captured Enemies
(Trollmeat) Wondering about the returned implanted folk leaving the gang with all their gear on a D6 roll of 1 before each battle. Seems that the model may as well be killed for if one of my lads was implanted this way I would prolly just strip him of all his gear and throw him forwards as a meat shield until he retires due to injury or implant...
Yes, this was the intention. I wanted the fighter to be able to return to his gang so the gang can keep his gear. He will almost certainly be stripped of his gear the moment he returns. There’s something a bit different about Dave since he escaped from that place…
(Trollmeat) Although it is mentioned under "Lawful" that the usual non-outlaw rules apply, it isn't specifically stated under Captured Enemies if the cult can sell captives off as slaves/collect bounty/etc, except that Spyrers cannot be implanted/ransomed/sold. Perhaps for captive mutants/spyrers/etc they could be eaten as per Scavvy Cannibalism rules [creds=(S*T+W)*2], otherwise they provide nothing for the cult.
I do not see the cult as a cannibal outfit. Fluffwise, nothing supports this – their modus operandi is the capture and implantation of innocents. No precedent for eating captives as far as I know. Assimilate or slay are the only options I see as being open to them – they can’t exactly let a captive see the lair and then sell them into slavery to tell everyone about it. Added a line clarifying that they cannot be sold or ransomed.
Profles - Hybrids
(Tomcaet) Profiles might be the first to take a look at...very strong...
I wanted the Hybrid profiles to be a cut above a standard ganger.
*debates in head*
They cost 75 credits each – that’s 25 more than a standard ganger. WS4 is powerful as a starting WS, but remember that the cult can only recruit Hybrids at the start now. Cults can realistically have two or three of these creatures if you want extra arms and fancy weapons. The max is 7, in a gang with no weapons or Purestrains. They can never recruit more. They cost 75 creds each. Is WS4 alone worth 25 creds? No, I think they should be Ld8 too. Offsets the loss of the Hierarch’s Ld and unpinning rule. Also increase their starting XP so they don’t level as fast?
*sounds of quill scratching’
Ok, Hybrids now have LD8 and WS4 to start with, but begin with XP of 60 + D6. They are purchased as skilled fighters, but level slowly.
Hierarch Profile
Ld reduced to 9, but upping his cost to 130. He has lost a lot of effectiveness since he no longer boosts the whole cult’s Ld, but ganger-for-ganger he is still a match for another leader, and can be made into a combat monster if you spend some creds for an extra arm and a powerful weapon.
Hypnotic Gaze & Wyrd Powers
(Trollmeat) Hypnotic Gaze: I might change this to only when charging, for fluff reasons, as when models are engaged in close combat they are ducking/weaving/kicking/biting/etc and don't really have time for a stare-off... and, it is pretty powerful with the Ld10 and reducing model's WS to 1...
Agreed. Slight oversight as to how powerful this was. Now he can only use it when he charges. Still nasty though. Ld9 on the Hierarch makes it a bit less probable.
(Trollmeat) Psychic Powers: Perhaps just add that the Hierarch has one Wyrd Minor Power and add this cost automatically, possibly using the Scavvy Wyrdo rules of it being rolled up randomly at the start of each battle (with multiple minor powers or extra primary counting as None this battle.
Not really feeling this, due to the desire to differentiate from existing rules. Also, I like options – he doesn’t necessarily need another psychic power (fluffwise). The cult is in its infancy, and his psychic abilities are perhaps still developing.
Extra Arm
(Trollmeat) The Scavvy mutation of Extra Arm costs 10 creds, so this is the same (but there is a limit of 1 of each type of mutation for Scavvies, and no limit to number of mutated hybirds), and the Scavvy Claw mutation costs 5 creds (which replaces one arm). You've got the Extra Arm costing 10, and an additional 15 creds to make this a Claw Arm instead. If this was to stay the same it would be cheaper and more versatile to buy an Extra Arm and a Club for a total of 20 creds instead of an Extra Claw arm at 25. I initially thought it was 10 for Extra Arm, or a total of 15 for Extra Claw Arm. Is this because you have increased the save mod/damage(which also seems very powerful)?
Yes, this is all intentional. I feel the powerful Claw (save mod + D3 dam on 6) is justified; it is a
Genestealer claw after all. Cost will make this prohibitive – 115 creds for a Hybrid with an Autopistol and a Genestealer Claw is a lot. Yes, you can make them very powerful, but it all comes at a cost. Two of these monsters, plus a basic leader and the 3 Brood Brothers you need to field them, all armed with an Autopistol, costs 525 creds.
(Trollmeat) Also wondering why a model with an Extra Claw Arm cannot be equipped with a Basic weapon? There are several old-school models that have a claw arms and hold a basic weapon.
Because I was basing the list on the new Deathwatch Overkill models. You’re right though, there are older models with an extra arm + claw and basic weapon. This restriction has been removed.
Purestrain
(Trollmeat) Should probably be labelled "Purestrain Special Rules" to avoid confusion as to whether or not these rules apply to the Hierarch/etc.
Done – good spot.
(Trollmeat) Scenarios & use of Purestrain: Makes sense to limit the Purestrain's use, but unsure how would be best to go about it. While they are very powerful, they cost 1/5 of the cult's starting creds which would mean that in scenarios that they do not turn up it is a cred-sink and would leave the cult vulnerable. Praps the Purestrain could be free and only turn up when the gang would be underdogs by 200 or more points? I dunno..
I have seen rulesets that do this, so I went for a different approach. Yes, they are a point sink, but this helps limit the cult’s overall power. I want the Purestrain to be a feature of the gang, but not dominate it, however using him as an underdog bonus means he may show up in scenarios where he doesn’t have a place. Keeping him away from settlements makes sense to me as a way of limiting his use. I estimate that he will show up to about 1 in 4 or 1 in 5 scenarios. Reduces the overall power of the cult by a lot, but who the hel wants a cult without a Purestrain?
(Trollmeat) Monster Rolls: There are other creatures lurking deep in the dark dank underhive than Genestealers, they may be horrifying alien invaders but there are equally terrifying creatures that come from the sump.
Really? Genestealers are the most badass of badasses. Even their nightmares are afraid of them. Also, having your 200 cred superweapon punked by a gribbly on a bad roll in his first showing is going to leave a sour taste… I agree that they could encounter nasty creatures, but I reckon they are up there with the most lethal of things the Underhive has to offer.
(Trollmeat) Injury: The Purestrain cannot be captured?
Nope. Not sure how a gang of hive punks would go about capturing one of the galaxy’s most violent creatures. Need more than a net and a club to catch one. That’s a job for Ordo Xenos terminators.
(Trollmeat) Blips: I like this, but would let the blips declare a charge and reveal themselves.
This is just evil. I made it so you have to convert the blip and survive a turn before charging. Hiding in cover etc. will make it hard enough to take the monster down as it is, plus they can’t be pinned so you have to actually Down it to stop it. The enemy gang gets one turn of brown-pants shooting before the creature strikes. Gives them a fighting chance so the Stealer doesn’t simply auto-kill.
(Trollmeat) Climb: All models can climb ladders at no movement penalty, just need to state that they can climb sheer surfaces. Maybe even go as far as letting the Purestrain leap up one level even if there is no wall to climb at a cost of 3" movement?
I think this is what the rule states, isn’t it? "They suffer no movement penalties for climbing, and can traverse any vertical surface, even those without ladders." I also thought about the leap idea, but discarded it as I feel that this would make them far too mobile.
Weapons
(Tomcaet) Flamer is priced at 80, is it a typo?
Yes, corrected it to 40, well spotted.
(Tomcaet) They get Missiles in Extras, but no Missile Launcher. Are they just filling the Extras part?
All gangs get access to the Extras & Misc list. Just there for completeness really. They can always buy a missile launcher after startup by forgoing a rare trade.
Thank you again for the feedback, I have updated the PDF on the first post to be the new version, including the changes above. I am due to start my campaign in the next few weeks, and have an enthusiastic Cult player who will be playing these rules, so we'll give them a good playtest.
In the meantime, I challenge you all to make the most abusive gang you can from these rules. Exploit everything possible. Psychic power combos with Hypnotic Gaze, souped-up Hybrids, Brood Brother rush lists etc. Catch any really overpowered abuses.
Thanks,
-Hunger
