Hurl opponent/Headbutt Interactions

[Mothman]

(MOD- SPLIT FROM Cawdor/GW4 Speculation thread as these skill interactions may be of interest to players of other gangs! {cardyfreak})

Is there confirmation on the skills for cawdor

Leader
primary
brawn
leadership

secondary
ferocity savant

champs
primary
brawn

secondary
agility

Does this mean cawdor just get 1 less skill than other factions? legacy lists them as Brawn/combat which is probably worst combo as brawl tree is kinda useless and combat offers little ways of actually helping you reach combat (agilities additional speed+spring up or ferocity true grit and nerves of steel)

 

[enyoss]

Is there confirmation on the skills for cawdor

Leader
primary
brawn
leadership

secondary
ferocity savant

champs
primary
brawn

secondary
agility

Does this mean cawdor just get 1 less skill than other factions? legacy lists them as Brawn/combat which is probably worst combo as brawl tree is kinda useless and combat offers little ways of actually helping you reach combat (agilities additional speed+spring up or ferocity true grit and nerves of steel)

On the other hand, Ferocity is a great table to have as your secondary skill especially if combat focused. You can roll randomly on it and every skill is going to be useful.

Agility though is a terrible secondary table. A third of the skills can't even be used in ZM games, so there's a significant risk to rolling randomly. Brawn is similarly rubbish as a secondary table, so I think I'd rather have it on the inside pissing out as a primary table than on the outside pissing in as a secondary one .

 

[Mothman]

Id argue brawn is a terrible primary and secondary skillset. I rate agility as one of the best Primary skillsets (spring up, dash and dodge are all great) ferocity is stronger than it as a secondary though I agree (zerker-fearsome-nerves-true grit-unstoppable are good on nearly anyone)

Ironjaw- probably the worst skill in game how situational it is (escape artist will likely improve when delaque arrives)
Hurl-really funny skill, though based on our groups experiences ppl often survive 15" drops, probably more effective to just hit then normaly
headbutt- similar, its probably more effective to just hit them with normal attack (if brawl and headbutt didn't take up an action they would be cool)
crushing blow- its ok
bulging biceps- the best skill in the tree and it got nerfed, might actually work well with the likely unwieldy pole arms
Bull charge- knock back I find better on defensive weapons (like van saar shields), hitting a target and knocking them further away will most of time just leave you in the open to be shot more easily

in my mind ironjaw+headbut should be combined, Bullcharge would be really fun if it let you charge through a wall and juggernaut your way into a room. The ferocity tree kinda just seems like a better brawn tree for what brawn wants to help you do.

Im more just kinda worried about Van Saar just nuking all my dudes with 2+ to hit before I even get close(though when they get close then gotta worry about the van saar with energy shield+mesh getting a 2+ save), hopefully the birds can help keep them distracted and that the pole arms get some nice AP.

 

[Chitriel]

Does this mean cawdor just get 1 less skill than other factions? legacy lists them as Brawn/combat which is probably worst combo as brawl tree is kinda useless and combat offers little ways of actually helping you reach combat (agilities additional speed+spring up or ferocity true grit and nerves of steel)

I would assume he just forgot to mention Combat as a primary skill for Cawdor leaders and champions.
That way they have the exact same skills as in the Legacy document.

To further support this, both Orlock and Van Saar got exactly the same skills as they had in the Legacy document.

 

[Chitriel]

Hurl-really funny skill, though based on our groups experiences ppl often survive 15" drops, probably more effective to just hit then normaly
headbutt- similar, its probably more effective to just hit them with normal attack (if brawl and headbutt didn't take up an action they would be cool)

But it is not really a problem that they take up an action, since your options for actions while engaged are rather limited.
If you don't take you opponent out on you first attack action and you don't have Rain of Blows (Combat skill) you second action is pretty much wasted.

But if you have Hurl or Headbutt you could put that action to good use.

For instance, while enganged use Headbutt before your standard attack action. That way you have an additional chance to put your opponent OoA before he can retaliate.

Or if you are engaged with a ready fighter and don't manage to take him out, and he does not manage to take you out with his retaliation attacks. You can Hurl him off the ledge before he gets to activate on his turn and attack you.

The only problem with Hurl and Headbutt taking up an action is that they cannot be used toegther with a Charge.

 

[almic85]

Is there confirmation on the skills for cawdor

Leader
primary
brawn
leadership

secondary
ferocity savant

champs
primary
brawn

secondary
agility

Does this mean cawdor just get 1 less skill than other factions? legacy lists them as Brawn/combat which is probably worst combo as brawl tree is kinda useless and combat offers little ways of actually helping you reach combat (agilities additional speed+spring up or ferocity true grit and nerves of steel)

I would assume that they stick with the gangs of legend skill access.

Leader Primary Brawn, Combat, Leadership. Secondary Ferocity, Savant.
Champion Primary Brawn, Combat. Secondary Agility, Ferocity, LEadership
Juve Primary Ferocity. Secondary Agility, Combat
Specialist Primary Combat, Ferocity. Secondary Agility, Brawn

Cawdor were always the ferocity combat gang so I hope they change the leader and champ primary to ferocity.
Goliath were Brawn Combat.
Escher were Agility Combat

 

[Chitriel]

I would assume that they stick with the gangs of legend skill access.

Leader Primary Brawn, Combat, Leadership. Secondary Ferocity, Savant.
Champion Primary Brawn, Combat. Secondary Agility, Ferocity, LEadership
Juve Primary Ferocity. Secondary Agility, Combat
Specialist Primary Combat, Ferocity. Secondary Agility, Brawn

Cawdor were always the ferocity combat gang so I hope they change the leader and champ primary to ferocity.
Goliath were Brawn Combat.
Escher were Agility Combat

I think so as well.
Although like you I hope to be proven wrong, and have Cawdor with Ferocity primary all the way around.

 

[enyoss]

Id argue brawn is a terrible primary and secondary skillset. I rate agility as one of the best Primary skillsets (spring up, dash and dodge are all great) ferocity is stronger than it as a secondary though I agree (zerker-fearsome-nerves-true grit-unstoppable are good on nearly anyone)

Ironjaw- probably the worst skill in game how situational it is (escape artist will likely improve when delaque arrives)
Hurl-really funny skill, though based on our groups experiences ppl often survive 15" drops, probably more effective to just hit then normaly
headbutt- similar, its probably more effective to just hit them with normal attack (if brawl and headbutt didn't take up an action they would be cool)
crushing blow- its ok
bulging biceps- the best skill in the tree and it got nerfed, might actually work well with the likely unwieldy pole arms
Bull charge- knock back I find better on defensive weapons (like van saar shields), hitting a target and knocking them further away will most of time just leave you in the open to be shot more easily

in my mind ironjaw+headbut should be combined, Bullcharge would be really fun if it let you charge through a wall and juggernaut your way into a room. The ferocity tree kinda just seems like a better brawn tree for what brawn wants to help you do.

Im more just kinda worried about Van Saar just nuking all my dudes with 2+ to hit before I even get close(though when they get close then gotta worry about the van saar with energy shield+mesh getting a 2+ save), hopefully the birds can help keep them distracted and that the pole arms get some nice AP.

Remember with Hurl and Headbut you can do them in addition to your regular attack action.

Hurl and shoot, or hurling away dangerous enemies if you’re worried about reaction attacks, is also useful.

 

[FerociousBeast]

Hurl only activates if the enemy fails an initiative test, though, which is going to be 50% of the time at best, unless you're fighting Van Saar, in which case you're usually better off just krumpin' 'em. It's also an action that you can use only when Engaged, which means that your combat has to last past the first round, when both actions were used Charging. I really want to like Hurl, but it seems so incredibly situational.

The game totally needs an "Engage (Basic)" action, where you spend a single action move to get up in someone's face to fight, but you don't get the bonuses for charging. Then you could do a lot more of the fun stuff like Headbutt and Hurl.

 

[enyoss]

Hurl only activates if the enemy fails an initiative test, though, which is going to be 50% of the time at best, unless you're fighting Van Saar, in which case you're usually better off just krumpin' 'em.

But it's not either/or with Hurl though - you can krump, and then throw if they're left standing.

It has a few nice applications, admittedly best suited to when you're on the defensive (i.e. fighting several enemies or on the receiving end of a charge):

- In multiple combats, you can throw one of the enemy combatants away to remove interference (and you don't have to be facing them to throw them), and then fight the remaining one.

- In multiple combats, you can throw one of the enemy combatants away and into another engaged combatant, removing interference and scoring a free S3 hit on the remaining fighter, before using your second action to hit them as above.

- In ongoing fights against tough opponents you can use your first action to fight, and if that doesn't work you can throw them away to prevent them using their activation to attack you back (and as they're pinned they can't re-charge you thanks to the absence of the Engage (Basic) action ).

- Hurl and shoot... especially if you have a decent pistol or sawnoff shotgun.

Several of those are quite situational, and it's definitely not the best skill in the game (especially thanks to the Initiative check), but it does have its uses.

 

[DerekDecker]

The game totally needs an "Engage (Basic)" action, where you spend a single action move to get up in someone's face to fight, but you don't get the bonuses for charging. Then you could do a lot more of the fun stuff like Headbutt and Hurl.

So it's an action that only move you within 1" and not fight. so you can hurl instead? That wouldn't be very useful.

The way I see these engaged action atm and how they could be useful is :

1. They replaced 1 of your non-pistol attack. Like using the chem-synth in melee.

2. They give you additional attack, but you have to roll to see if that action is used before opponent reaction attack, or after. make a chart compare the 2 model Initiative like the one they have in 7th. If you have both Hurl and Headbutt then you can only use one.

Probably a combination of both since using chem synth for free or using it after your opponent attack is dumb.

 

[enyoss]

But it is not really a problem that they take up an action, since your options for actions while engaged are rather limited.
If you don't take you opponent out on you first attack action and you don't have Rain of Blows (Combat skill) you second action is pretty much wasted.

But if you have Hurl or Headbutt you could put that action to good use.

For instance, while enganged use Headbutt before your standard attack action. That way you have an additional chance to put your opponent OoA before he can retaliate.

Or if you are engaged with a ready fighter and don't manage to take him out, and he does not manage to take you out with his retaliation attacks. You can Hurl him off the ledge before he gets to activate on his turn and attack you.

The only problem with Hurl and Headbutt taking up an action is that they cannot be used toegther with a Charge.

Seeing this thread split out made me realise that my later contributions mostly just parroted what you already said here :/. Plagiarism unintended .