Inquisimunda v2 - Reborn from ashes - Community Edition

[Tiny]

Don't panic. I will sort it out. Just seems odd that the lowest member of a gang isn't +0.

I'm starting to think that the method of just adding +10TG per level up is a little daft. No way an Eldar Juve should cost 5TG more than a Human Ganger. +1M&I does not equate to +1WS/BS.

This, however is the wrong thread for such things so probably best take it to the Races thread.

 

[tribeof1]

In that comparison, don't forget the (informal) value of the extra advance a juve will get compared to someone who starts at ganger level. It's not huge, but enough to make the Eldar juve worth considering. But we also may not have reduced the cost of Eldar enough after removing the BS bonus. I think playtesting is needed before we can know for sure.

 

[scavvyjay]

There was a cost matrix in the old rogue trader, different stats had different values. I could dig it out when I get home if you like. It was how they originally costed their models. It might be of interest.

 

[Gregor Firedrake]

There is a cost matrix somewhere in this very thread I remember reading where someone broke down the costs of the necromunda stuff

 

[Tiny]

A better option than +10TG per level up would be:

+M, I, Ld +5TG
+WS, BS, S, T, A +10TG
+W +20TG

Double cost for each point increase after the 1st in a given stat.

Skills are then +10/20 depending on how good they are.

Skills access is neither here nor there. More just a fluff thing. 5TG at most.

 

[Gregor Firedrake]

A better option than +10TG per level up would be:

+M, I, Ld +5TG
+WS, BS, S, T, A +10TG
+W +20TG

Double cost for each point increase after the 1st in a given stat.

Skills are then +10/20 depending on how good they are.

Skills access is neither here nor there. More just a fluff thing. 5TG at most.

Can't say I disagree with those coatings, would the same going down apply?

 

[Tiny]

Yes but after a point it is worth some TG just to have bodies on the table (i.e. Grots).

Also needs to be a little flexible based on gut feeling. e.g. with costing Tau Caste or Not a Leader skill etc.

 

[Meavar]

Jeah but then the problem comes, you could have a human ad 1 bs substract 1 ws and 1 str and we have the cost of a grot (but with +1 i, +1 ld, +1 bs, and no craven special rule)
I think subtractions should generally be less (consider it a 0 order increase so half the cost, so we can just say double the cost for each extra increase/ half the cost for each decrease?)
Also specialization is quite important
Having ws 1 and bs 3 is better then having both at 2 (one could even vote that ws 3 and bs 1 is better, but that will make some things like heavies harder to use effectively unless there is also an option for a cc heavy in the new warband section).
I might even vote to make bs and t 15 since they are in my mind slightly better then ws and s (especially since low s can be offset with things like chain weapons which have a set str value)

 

[Gregor Firedrake]

You make some very good points @Meavar

 

[Evin Wijninga]

Glad he's still playing @Evin Wijninga , I hope you are keeping him up to date with the happenings here, so even if he cant find the time himself, you can always discuss stuff with him and see if he has any views or thoughts (then you can shameless steal them and post them here as your own brilliance! )

Will do! I asked him if he wants to do photographs, as he used to be a professional photographer and miniature painter before he started teaching. He said he'll do pics if we we need them

 

[Gregor Firedrake]

Also remembered another reason that juves are 5pts is that they get D3 exp to start rather than the 0 of necromunda so they get there first level up quicker

 

[tribeof1]

A better option than +10TG per level up would be:

+M, I, Ld +5TG
+WS, BS, S, T, A +10TG
+W +20TG

Double cost for each point increase after the 1st in a given stat.

Skills are then +10/20 depending on how good they are.

Skills access is neither here nor there. More just a fluff thing. 5TG at most.

Generally agree. I think BS and T upgrades creep closer to being worth 15 TG. That's kind of how we eyeballed things in the species revision when not sticking to the 10 per advance guideline.

 

[Evin Wijninga]

Hi guys! Haven't been here in quite a while, glad to see some new people (and some veterans returning, hi @Tiny!) moving it forward. It's seems a bit chaotic though so I'm just wondering

1) who is coordinating the project atm?
2) who is doing the layout?
3) are there people responsible for updating each list and section of the rule book?

Just wondering if you guys have worked out a system or if it's more of a collaborative effort on all fronts. Anyway very happy to see you guys working away at this!

+++Please report to Inquisitor GREGOR FIREDRAKE for a situation report and further instructions+++

 

[Gregor Firedrake]

@Mymearan welcome back I'll try my best to answer your questions.

1) there are a few of us trying to keep this project on track, myself @Tiny @tribeof1 and most importantly our resident mod @spafe.

2) Iv taken over doing the layout and creating the main files.

3) were just getting on or feed but st the the Seacond when we identify a part of the book that needs updating or changing we assign a work group of some people to write the section then we have a feedback cycle that we're hammering out and once that's compleated we have a vote to see if it's done, once that's passed we move on there are a few more complexities but I hope you get the idea, please feel free to ask anymore questing and look forward to seeing your thoughts on the threads

 

[4rmless]

Very cool! I'll at least be hanging around to cheer you on. I did the Eldar list for 2.0 and me and others have made a lot of updates to an upcoming 2.1 list in that thread, hopefully you guys like it and will incorporate it. One tip I would give you guys is to post about the project and link to the forum on the inq28/inquisimunda FB group (of which I'm head admin and creator btw), to get some more eyes on it and generate interest and perhaps contributors.

There's been quite a lot of discussion about how the Eldar and Ork warbands fit into ][munda recently, and there's a proposal in the works for a new warband creation process.

Might be worth checking in on the V3.0 Warband Creation Update thread and making your views known if you feel strongly about the Eldar gang.

 

[Blood Donor]

Two points mentioned well on the last page that I think are really interesting.

In regards to Settlement (or I'munda equiv.):

I actually like you -25tg discount on a juve that way it's fair to all involved. I shall put that to the group tomorow when we meet to play some more.

In regards to weapon access:

I mean weapons access. There is still Juve level guys but in order to incoporate such imbeciles as "Timmy: Imperial Guard Conscript" or "Jed: Old Man with Blunderbuss", they're getting basic weapons access.

This speaks to layers of game design beyond the pen and paper and starts to look at available miniatures as an impact to rules. Deep thinking. What I really like is how, from @Gregor Firedrake's quote, the idea shifts from a free Juve to a discount on a new hire. This would be big even for Necromunda. For my Necro minis, they are almost all GW plastic kits as stand ins. For example, my Eschers are 2x 10 DE Wyches box sets, and the DE Wyche Succubus as the leader. Most of my sets are this, around 18-22 miniatures. I don't have magnetizing minis in my hobby abilities yet, so this has been the standard to my gang collection: take about 20 minis and equip them so that you have a pretty balanced and good spread for a gang. What it does do though is that your available hirees become a more limited selection. If I have all my pistol and combat weapon minis in the gang already, I either have to hire a Juve with a Basic Weapon (against rules) or hire a Ganger. You can see where all of a sudden the Settlement perk being 25 cred off a hire instead of a new Juve becomes a door opener.

And then with @Tiny's post, it lead me to another thought: many of the brand new to Necromunda players I have seen usually have discount purchased Cadians for miniatures. No available combat options around, so even Juves have Basic Weapons on those sculpts. And they aren't alone. Pig Iron, Sedition Wars, lots of the good post apoc options from the CMON website; there just aren't a whole lot of good Juve miniatures, especially since you could use like 5+ on a 20 man roster. So do you just say "counts as pistol" for all these rifle carrying minis? My thought of the morning is what if you let Juves buy Basic Weapons at some inflated cost? Like +10 creds? They are still horrible shots, so it would reflect that it was not top choice to give them Basic Weapons, but in certain situations it went from being against the game's rules to being simply a bit of a pricier endeavour. It sorta promotes getting into the conversion side of the hobby, which is great, but still lets new players get games in with the cheaper starter gang options without turning the whole thing into a WYSIWYG nightmare.

I know these points are tied back into Necromunda more than I'munda so aren't really driving the conversation, but the outcome could be equally applicable. Thoughts?

 

[Gregor Firedrake]

i have no problem with juves with basic weapons, tbh i think that as you and @Tiny say it opens up alot of posibilities that i would love to see in warbands and created a broader recruitment and alowes you to represent even more specifics with the lovely generic system. as for cost, as one of the things a warrior pays for is his access to weapons, perhaps adding +5tg to juves for there access to basic weapons would not be that bad and would ballance them a little more but it would increase there cost over all and change the dynamic slightly so the next logical step is a optional upgrade to a juve level at recruitment of +5tg that allows them access to basic weapons from the start.

my group are finding the -25tg from a juve recruitment to be alot more fair, we did consider as you say making it a -25tg from any recruitment but belived the point was to get a new new new guy for your gang that would have to work to be usefull rather than being a cheap way to get more experianced members that help straigh away so kept it as is

 

[tribeof1]

I think letting juves have basic weapons is fine even without a points increase. They're still going to be lousy shots, and basic weapons at best get a +1 to hit at short range, whereas as the good old juve standard, the autopistol, gets +2. Even with access to basic, I think you'll see the majority of juves geared for HtH, because a juve geared for melee (i.e. 2 weapons) has pretty decent chances vs a ganger that isn't geared for close combat, despite being WS 2.

Edit: And we can always add 5 pts later if playtesting shows otherwise.

 

[Blood Donor]

Maybe, since 5 creds/tgs is the base unit for costing, make it that just as an underlying deterrent to fully decking them out. The Autogun, Shotgun, or Lasgun are all options but you would be hard pressed to have a hay day with kitting your Juves for eventual success, which should represent the value within the gang of the cost of a rifle. This means that Boltguns and Shotguns with multiple types of shot won't be flying off the shelves, but that things are not a set in stone rule.

One big way to open flexibility in the numbers is to use Necromunda's costing system as the base for it. You can't decrease the cost of the worst item, leave that as the frame of reference for the cost of all other items. Then, if you increase the cost per ganger and income earned, you can then inflate across the span of the available weapons and equipment to create pocket gaps between items/item classes, adding a layer of value to the in laid cost system. Managing money becomes more of a factor to gameplay, so adds to the off the table layers of the Necromunda/I'munda system. For one, it reflects the ease of obtaining these items. Combine it with a restructured Trading Post table such as the Alternate Rare Trade Table rules in my link, and the managing of dice result brackets can bring in a tiered system to rarity. If all of this is embedded within the game system, players will naturally arrive at decisions such as "Hmm, does it make sense in the long run to give this Juve a Basic Weapon at the 5 cred/tg upgrade cost?". It would require all the prices to be inflated incrimentally from bottom up, and then recalculate based on the current standard earnings and costings how much the earnings and cost of characters have to be increased to create that monetary balance within the system.

 

[4rmless]

Maybe, since 5 creds/tgs is the base unit for costing, make it that just as an underlying deterrent to fully decking them out. The Autogun, Shotgun, or Lasgun are all options but you would be hard pressed to have a hay day with kitting your Juves for eventual success, which should represent the value within the gang of the cost of a rifle. This means that Boltguns and Shotguns with multiple types of shot won't be flying off the shelves, but that things are not a set in stone rule.

One big way to open flexibility in the numbers is to use Necromunda's costing system as the base for it. You can't decrease the cost of the worst item, leave that as the frame of reference for the cost of all other items. Then, if you increase the cost per ganger and income earned, you can then inflate across the span of the available weapons and equipment to create pocket gaps between items/item classes, adding a layer of value to the in laid cost system. Managing money becomes more of a factor to gameplay, so adds to the off the table layers of the Necromunda/I'munda system. For one, it reflects the ease of obtaining these items. Combine it with a restructured Trading Post table such as the Alternate Rare Trade Table rules in my link, and the managing of dice result brackets can bring in a tiered system to rarity. If all of this is embedded within the game system, players will naturally arrive at decisions such as "Hmm, does it make sense in the long run to give this Juve a Basic Weapon at the 5 cred/tg upgrade cost?". It would require all the prices to be inflated incrimentally from bottom up, and then recalculate based on the current standard earnings and costings how much the earnings and cost of characters have to be increased to create that monetary balance within the system.

I really like the general direction of this, and am a fan of the alternate table, but I think we'd need to put a lot of work into shifting all the costings up to reflect it. Can you offer some examples of where you'd take, for example, some of the non-NCE costs?