N18 Insanity and XP

[lastbrat]

So, in our last battle, my Wyrd made a Death Maiden insane, I got to control her during her activation, she charged and tool out a ganger from her gang. Does she gain the 2XP, since she directly caused a fighter to go OOA, or does my Wyrd get to share in the XP in some way? Opinions, anyone?

 

[TopsyKretts]

Easiest is to let Death Maiden get XP for her own kills. Can house rule it, but there are many effects that cause insanity outside psychic powers so would be very careful down that rabbit hole. For example shooting a cursed bolter, causing the enemy to become insane.

 

[lastbrat]

Yeah, that's what we agreed upon, also as a kind of compensation for this nasty skill causing her to take out her own friendly fighters. Poor sod also rolled 63 on the lasting injury chart...

 

[Aulenback]

This falls into the "direct cause" rabbit hole similar to falls from being pinned and knockback, and so on, but even moreso.

Personally, I think you and TopsyKretts [as usual] have it right - the insane Death Maiden gets the experience for taking out the "friendly" ganger, because the insane Death Maiden took out the friendly ganger. The psyker does not. Trying to track back to "root causes" opens a large can of threadneedle worms.

 

[Beebopalulla]

The maiden killing the friends is planed by the then controlling player who could have chosen to have her make i don't know take a selfie? So yes for me too she can get the XP.

 

[Scabs]

No. The DM don't get XP for taking OOA her own fighters. C'mon! This rewards the opponent for you using their DM to attack their fighter. And is a disincentive for you to do it. You think your fighter should get XP for a grenade that deviates and hits and takes OOA your own fighters? During a forgettable campaign, my incredible Van Saar Leader "Pixel" took OOA THREE of her own gangers with Stray Shots from her untrusty Plasma Pistol. She did not earn XP for that! In fact, it was adversly reflected in her annual performance evaluation.

 

[HugeSamples]

No, the death maiden does not get xp. She has to cause a serious injury or take an enemy fighter out of action

1 xp if their action directly causes an enemy fighter to suffer one or more serious injuries.
2 xp if their action directly causes an enemy fighter to go out of action.

~ page 148 core rulebook

Taking out a friendly model, insane or otherwise, does not qualify.

 

[TopsyKretts]

When insane, the friendly fighter is treated as enemy. You can't target friendly fighters with attacks.

 

[daveh]

we learn by our mistakes , she should get experience.

 

[Beebopalulla]

This is not about any one in particular and it's not an attack or sarcarsm.

I do not think that we should be so strict about what count as " x earn the xp". For one it goes against the rules of fun. Also, the first rule is if two player disagree throw a dice and deals with the situation latter goes with house rule.

The learning curve, the way you gain xp is very slow compare to the survivability of a figther. Having a more relax interpretation of the p 148 rules concerning XP might help balance the game.

What i read is two opinions, one in favor and one against giving the XP. I don't see any compromise here. So definetely something that must be agree on before a game.

 

[HugeSamples]

When insane, the friendly fighter is treated as enemy. You can't target friendly fighters with attacks.

The wording on page 69 (nice!) is as follows:

The opposing player can control the insane model for the duration of this activation, treating them as part of their gang in all respects until their activation ends. As soon as their activation ends, the insane model no longer counts as being part of the opposing gang. In the case of a multiplayer game, the winner of a roll-off between the other players will control the insane model.

~ Core Rulebook page 69

Other skills, such as the psychoteric whisper Seen Unseen, specifically say "the chosen fighter treats all fighters as being enemy fighters".

The differences in the choice of wording from the two skills feels like the intent is for the insane person to not get xp (being insane is not supposed to be a perk). That said "treating them as part of their gang in all respects" might imply "treat friendly models as an enemies", otherwise they couldn't perform attacks.

I think the intent of the status is to be allowed to attack friendly models, but in the language of the game they didn't have a good way to say that.

Like all things in this game we are free to play things how we want as long as both players/the arbiter agree .

Personally, I think the insane fighter should not get the xp as they were not in control of their actions (nothing to learn).

 

[Lunarcruiser]

"A model gains XP for any of the following actions:
2 XP if thier action directly causes a enemy fighter to go Out of Action"

(Plus the others but not relevant here)

First off your Wyrd. Cast/manifest power, make Death Maiden go nuts, Death Maiden stabs fellow sister a lot.
While it happens in sequence there are intervening steps between the wyrd and the OOA gang sister so it is not direct.
I would say that the Wyrd did not directly cause the OOA so no XP.

Now for the death Maiden it's just a mess. Your opponent activates the murder tornado. They then roll a D6, roll 3-4 then hand control to you. You then charge and put some out thier sisters OOA. Then when the activation is over they revert to your opponents control.

If you are playing a multiplayer game the other players roll off for control.

None of that really seams direct to me.
I would be tempted to hide behind the legal definition of insanity. If you are insane you are not responsible for your actions.
All the other XP is basically given for something your model chooses to do. They choose to shoot/stab that hiver, they choose to turn up to battle, they choose to quit running around waving thier arms around (like a certain peasant from a GW Giant set I believe) and get back in the fight or they choose to help thier comrade bleeding on the floor.
If you are insane your model does not really choose so I would say no XP for the Death Maiden.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Total aside.
When I was looking up the XP conditions I noticed that you don't need to "directly" cause a enemy vehicle becomes Wrecked to gain the XP. So dropping some mines that another vehicle triggers three rounds later apparently counts.

 

[Beebopalulla]

"A model gains XP for any of the following actions:
2 XP if thier action directly causes a enemy fighter to go Out of Action"

(Plus the others but not relevant here)

First off your Wyrd. Cast/manifest power, make Death Maiden go nuts, Death Maiden stabs fellow sister a lot.
While it happens in sequence there are intervening steps between the wyrd and the OOA gang sister so it is not direct.
I would say that the Wyrd did not directly cause the OOA so no XP.

Now for the death Maiden it's just a mess. Your opponent activates the murder tornado. They then roll a D6, roll 3-4 then hand control to you. You then charge and put some out thier sisters OOA. Then when the activation is over they revert to your opponents control.

If you are playing a multiplayer game the other players roll off for control.

None of that really seams direct to me.
I would be tempted to hide behind the legal definition of insanity. If you are insane you are not responsible for your actions.
All the other XP is basically given for something your model chooses to do. They choose to shoot/stab that hiver, they choose to turn up to battle, they choose to quit running around waving thier arms around (like a certain peasant from a GW Giant set I believe) and get back in the fight or they choose to help thier comrade bleeding on the floor.
If you are insane your model does not really choose so I would say no XP for the Death Maiden.

This one?

https://www.reddit.com/r/ageofsigmar/comments/10ggihs

 

[Scabs]

No, the death maiden does not get xp. She has to cause a serious injury or take an enemy fighter out of action



Taking out a friendly model, insane or otherwise, does not qualify.

That's the thing. Treat the insane fighter like an enemy model. BUT, that does NOT make the insane fighter's gang enemy fighters. They are still friendly fighters.

Plus, the Death Maiden will be burdened with a lifetime of regret for her insane actions. We're talking years of therapy, here.

 

[Lunarcruiser]

This one?

Yep.
I also believe he features in the Warhammer community cartoon Reforged

 

[Lunarcruiser]

Plus, the Death Maiden will be burdened with a lifetime of regret for her insane actions. We're talking years of therapy, here.

At least it's the Underhive so that might only be next week.

 

[TopsyKretts]

The differences in the choice of wording from the two skills feels like the intent is for the insane person to not get xp (being insane is not supposed to be a perk). That said "treating them as part of their gang in all respects" might imply "treat friendly models as an enemies", otherwise they couldn't perform attacks.

I don't believe the difference in wording means anything other than being inconsistent without reason

 

[Beebopalulla]

That's the thing Treat the insane fighter like an enemy model. BUT, that does NOT make the insane fighter's gang enemy fighters. They are still friendly fighters.

Plus, the Death Maiden will be burdened with a lifetime of regret for her insane actions. We're talking years of therapy, here.

A lifetime? How do you mesure that with an undead like a Death-Maiden?

 

[TopsyKretts]

Plus, the Death Maiden will be burdened with a lifetime of regret for her insane actions. We're talking years of therapy, here.

So perhaps she did learn something? Not to murder her friends. That requires more willpower apparently