N18 Is equipment for Hive Scum free?

Lord 83

Juve
Apr 22, 2022
10
0
6
23
So, it is unclear to me whether the equipment you can get for Hive Scums (and Bounty Hunters for that matter) is something you have to buy separately or not.
Here's the quote from he HoB for the Hive Scum entry
"Hive Scum may purchase up to 60 credits worth of weapons and Wargear fromtheHive Scum equipment list."
And here is the one for the Bounty Hunter
"In addition to their hiring fee, a Bounty Hunter may purchase up to 150 credits worth of weapons and Wargear..."

The thing is, these two entries are not the same, and thus I don't know if I have to buy the stuff with my gang's credits for one or both of them.
 

Scabs

Gang Hero
Feb 4, 2014
503
610
103
San Diego. CA, USA
I violently disagree! You only hire them. It says the Hive Scum and the Bounty Hunter "may purchase..." They come with the stuff they bought. It's not a windfall, they don't join your gang. To keep them, you have to keep paying them a hiring fee. You don't keep their weapons and gear. Works the same for Tactics Cards that let you bring "free" Hive Scum or Bounty Hunters or Juves. Now, that's not true of Outcasts gangers, who are also Hive Scum. You recruit them and outfit them out of pocket like any other gangers.

It there is an FAQ that says otherwise, I got's to know!.
 
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TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
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This has been a topic since what, 2017? 2018? I believe GW clarified this on multiple occasions, if my memory serves me right, the intention always was that the gang had to spend credits to equip temporary fighters. I can agree with your disagreement that it shouldn't be this way, but I can't disagree that the rules are this way.

Here is what Necrodamus has to say about it:
1652468528478.png

Now I'm too lazy to go back and search for whatever source this comes from (book, pdf or whatever). One of the main reasons I made this was that I wouldn't have to go back and look up official rules. Not to say I can't make mistakes, but it's quite explicitly stated and I never had any feedback saying it's wrong. You be the judge. Or you do the work and look up any sources 😄
 
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Ben_S

Hive Lord
Yak Comp 3rd Place
Honored Tribesman
Jul 26, 2015
6,725
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It there is an FAQ that says otherwise, I got's to know!.

Interestingly, the ruling on this was in the previous FAQ under the Gangs of the Underhive section. This section has now been removed from the latest FAQ, so there's technically no official ruling on this anymore.

Thankfully, the older (Dec 2019) FAQ is saved in the vault here:

See page 2, top right.
 

MusingWarboss

Hive Guilder
Oct 31, 2013
2,933
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I vaguely remember a sarcastic reply from GW on this which was essentially “you have to pay for things you buy”. I’m sure it was in an earlier errata/FAQ.
 
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Scabs

Gang Hero
Feb 4, 2014
503
610
103
San Diego. CA, USA
I double-violently disagree!!! That's gonna be awkward when the Iron Delegation sends D3+2 Wandering Scum your way, and you got no creds to buy them weapons and wargear (which they wont give back). Or, you play "A Few Friends" Outcast Tactics Card which does the same thing. And you don't get the W&W back. Oh, FAQ, how often thee vex me!

I kinda sometimes take FAQ's with a grain of salt. Especially if I've been playing the game for a quarter-century. But, I do stand corrected, here. And, I wont stand for it! I will continue to do it my (our) way. Because it's a minor thing that's not gonna change the game. Plus, the player who needs the BH or HS the most probably can't afford to buy their W&W anyway. And, it will mess up my current gang's Iron Delegation, and my favorite Outcast gang Tactics Card (other than the wonder weapon, one).
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
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I double-violently disagree!!! That's gonna be awkward when the Iron Delegation sends D3+2 Wandering Scum your way, and you got no creds to buy them weapons and wargear (which they wont give back). Or, you play "A Few Friends" Outcast Tactics Card which does the same thing. And you don't get the W&W back. Oh, FAQ, how often thee vex me!
No, there's a different rule, if you get them for free, the equipment is also free! Again, I made Necrodamus specifically to clear up such confusions:
1652482916678.png

I kinda sometimes take FAQ's with a grain of salt. Especially if I've been playing the game for a quarter-century. But, I do stand corrected, here. And, I wont stand for it! I will continue to do it my (our) way. Because it's a minor thing that's not gonna change the game. Plus, the player who needs the BH or HS the most probably can't afford to buy their W&W anyway. And, it will mess up my current gang's Iron Delegation, and my favorite Outcast gang Tactics Card (other than the wonder weapon, one).
I hear you. Step 1: Start with a few minor things that wouldn't have big impact. Step 2: ... Step 3: Re-write the whole game. That's what I did with Bookromunda.
 
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DeadDave

New Member
Feb 13, 2016
8
10
3
U.K.
The wording has changed several times over several books but the house of shadow book says “hive scum may purchase....”

So the hive scum is purchasing them? It doesn’t say “you may purchase x for your hive scum” or any words to that effect.

HoS then goes on to clarify that although the hive scum is buying the weapons/wargear you still add the value of them to your gang rating. Why explicitly state this if the gang are paying for the weapons?

I appreciate it’s not clearly written, but I believe it falls more on the side of a hive scum costs 30 creds not 30+x.

Plus, I think, their weapon options have been pared back? so no more 30 credit Boltguns (which I think in the past was the argument against them only being 30 credits to hire).

But who really knows?!
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
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This is the sort of thing I can't really keep up with. It was explicitly stated once. I can't go through all rules to see if it implicitly removed. I also can't go through each new FAQ to see what's missing from the previous FAQ. If I'm changing it, it needs a new explicit ruling!
 
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Jam Warrior

Ganger
Jul 28, 2014
236
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Andover, UK
The wording has changed several times over several books but the house of shadow book says “hive scum may purchase....”

So the hive scum is purchasing them? It doesn’t say “you may purchase x for your hive scum” or any words to that effect.

HoS then goes on to clarify that although the hive scum is buying the weapons/wargear you still add the value of them to your gang rating. Why explicitly state this if the gang are paying for the weapons?

I appreciate it’s not clearly written, but I believe it falls more on the side of a hive scum costs 30 creds not 30+x.

Plus, I think, their weapon options have been pared back? so no more 30 credit Boltguns (which I think in the past was the argument against them only being 30 credits to hire).

But who really knows?!

If you want to pick wording intent like that, the equivalent Bounty Hunter paragraph starts ‘In addition to their hiring fee, a Bounty Hunter may purchase…’ the mention of fees very much implying you do need pay for them. However those opening six words are missing from the scum listing so more inconsistency.
 
Aug 9, 2015
107
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Sunderland, UK
Why would you get the weapons/Wargear for free when choosing to hire a scum/bounty Hunter? You pay the token 30/80 creds for a model with a profile. You then also pay the cost of the Wargear. They have a maximum budget based on type; the better equipped a scum/hunter is, the more they charge as a hiring fee. They cost more (and leave with their weapons) but they they give you the chance to hire a customised fighter once you know who you are facing, which the opposing gang may not be expecting - or temporarily filling an unexpected gap in your gang. Bounty Hunters give you the chance to recoup some of their hiring costs.

The only time you don’t need to pay is when you get free fighters through allies, tactics cards etc (although the wording on tactics cards is frustratingly inconsistent - I think the outcasts card isn’t clear, where as others are) unless it specifically says otherwise?

As stated above, this was clarified (very clearly, and somewhat sarcastically) in the FAQs, although the removal of the GotU section has meant this has (hopefully temporarily) disappeared from the latest version.
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Lord
Honored Tribesman
Dec 29, 2017
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Yeah it's a raw deal and it's been so since 2018. GW made 2 updates to accommodate this:
  • Added in addition to the full crew (doesn't take a crew slot).
  • Bounty Hunters got extra rules that may make them stay around for multiple battles.
 

DeadDave

New Member
Feb 13, 2016
8
10
3
U.K.
I could go either way at this point.

I say just go with what your group consensus is, there is no right or wrong then.
 

cronevald

Gang Hero
Jun 5, 2016
1,066
2,296
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"Q. In the Hired Guns section, it says Hive Scum and Bounty
Hunters may purchase up to so many credits worth of
weapons and Wargear. Do I have to pay for this?
A. Yes, the more well equipped the Hired gun, the higher
their fee."

If it helps this is from the missing Gangs of the Underhive section in the most recent previous FAQ.
 

mateyboy3000

Gang Champion
May 29, 2017
281
283
63
If it helps this is from the missing Gangs of the Underhive section in the most recent previous FAQ.
It's not missing, it was intentionally removed as GotU is no longer supported by GW, they just failed to move relavent faq's and eratta to another spot in the faq
 
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Aug 9, 2015
107
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53
Sunderland, UK
As indicated above, the trade-off for paying the hire fee and equipment is:

- you get an EXTRA fighter/body/activation, over the top of any scenario limit, which your opponent may not have expected, and which you can tailor for the gang you are fighting.
- Hive scum, at 30creds a body, are ridiculously cheap, and it doesn’t matter if they die. You don’t NEED to spend a full 60creds on equipment if you just want an extra neat shield / activation delay / pair of feet to clim objectives.
- Bounty hunters earn you back creds, or stay on for an extra game.

These are really supposed to be occasional add-ons when you have the creds available.

If you got the equipment for free, I would be getting an 80cred bounty Hunter with a grav gun/Flamer/web gun, the profile to match, and a couple of skills in preference to buying another Ganger pretty much every game where I had the creds. And Dramatis Personae would be very much a last resort.

But yes, go with what the group plays as; I think getting equipment for free is way to OP, but if everyone can do so, there is no harm.
 
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locleos

Ganger
Apr 19, 2022
109
112
43
"when you have the credits available", they are, 95% of the time, outright worse than just buying a champion or ganger. The over the top of the thing is nice, but it just does not remotely make up for their transient nature. Especially if you're planning for them to have any gear whatsoever.

There's "tradeoff" and then there's paying 60 credits for a ganger with lasgun and mesh except it only sticks around for 1 game, and if you paid 70 instead you'd have him be a permanent addition.