N18 Is this crazy for my starting Escher?

Nov 22, 2018
25
19
28
La Crosse WI
So, we're starting up a new Dominion campaign.

I am playing Escher yet again.

I've always felt like I was failing to take advantage of their incredibly cheap access to Lasguns. So I'm considering this for my gang:

Leader: Two Shock Whips, Mesh Armor, Spring Up.
Champion: Heavy Stubber, Lasgun, Spring Up.
Champion: 2x Stiletto Swords, Chem-synth, Spring Up.
5 Gangers: Lasgun, Stub Gun.
Juve: Stub Gun
1 Ganger: 2 Auto-pistols, Stiletto Knife (because I have to have someone with two guns).

Comes out to 1000 credits. 10 Gangers. One squad of three (Leader + Melee Champ + Autopistols) to deploy together, the rest scattered all around the board, pinning people.

It seems like 5 60 credit gangers isn't a terrible idea. My leader will always be two shock whips. I'm not convinced by the Heavy Stubber. It also feels like I give her a smaller gun, or make her another melee champ, and get *another* Lasgunner, but it seems like you can have too many.

Thoughts?
 

Baffo

Ganger
Aug 2, 2018
243
435
73
Ljubljana
The gang looks good overall, but I would make the following suggestions:
- No guns on Leader and 2nd champ? (do you play following the 'can't discard weapons from a fighter's card' rule? If yes, I can understand leaving a weapon slot open for later 'expensive guns', but if you are not bound by that rule, there is no reason not to give the leader and Cc champ a lasgun each, so they can take a potshot when running at the enemy is not advisable).
- Are the Stub guns on the lasgun gangers really necessary? Non-upgraded Lasguns have a 2+ Ammo roll and Plentiful, so the gangers will never be using the Stubguns except maybe within their 6'' Short range or in melee, where they have the same attributes as bare fists. It would make sense if said gangers also had an actual melee wepon, but without it I don't really see their usefulness at the start of the campaign. If you took the Stubguns off the 5 lasgunners, you'd get 25 creds, spend 10 to give Lasguns to the leader and champ and spend 15 for a Smoke grenade or Mesh armor on someone.
- As you already note, the Heavy stubber isn't a particularly great gun, especially without Suspensors. I would suggest dropping the H stubber for a Plasmagun (if you still want a ranged champ with some punch) and a CC weapon (Stiletto sword would fit the points) or Photgoggles (to be able to see/shoot trough smoke clouds/darkenss), so this champ can keep up with the other 2 and provide some accurate firepower before the other 2 charge in. Alternatively you can also go for a cheaper gun, like a Needler or the Combi bolter, but rather than getting the 11th member of the gang I would suggest upgrading the Juve to a normal Ganger and spending any leftover credits on armor and/or smoke grenades.
 

Kiro The Avenger

Gang Champion
Apr 4, 2018
438
411
68
Bristol, UK
I don't like the look of this list.
- double melee weapons is bad, you get little to no benefit Vs a melee weapon and pistol and lose the range.
- my heavy stubber has been nothing but a [very] expensive disappointment.
- a Juve with just a Stubgun is pretty useless.
- Stubguns on your lasgunners are not needed, you don't need a backup for a lasgun.

I've had a lot of fun with a champion dual-wielding plasma pistols. She replaced my akimbo ganger, because I found said ganger to be absolutely flipping useless.

Plasmapistols are great weapons for melee champs. They add a strong punch both in melee and at range.

My Juve does well with a stiletto knife and either a second stiletto knife, autopistol, or Stubgun. Since Juves are terrible shots their greater melee focuses overrides my previous comment about two melee weapons. As soon as you can get an advancement, get the Juve a handflamer.

I would recommend you switch one of the Gangers to a needle rifle, they're accurate at short range and quite lethal
Getting a champion with plasmagun or combi-bolter if you find the credits would also give you more lethality at range.

If you want to get in close, Overseer on your leader would be far more beneficial to boost your Champion/Juve.
 

Scabs

Ganger
Feb 4, 2014
97
107
33
San Diego. CA, USA
Fisrt, understand Toxin has been nerfed twice. It was ridiculous,. Then it was better than OK. Now it's the equvilent of a S3 weapon that ignores multiple wounds. TBH, not a fan no more.

Leader: Two Shock Whips, Mesh Armor, Spring Up.
Yeah, an extra Shock Whip (25 creds) only gives you one more Versatile attack. Would rather have a hard-hitting pistol, like a Plasma Pistol. Or, go cheap with a Needle Pistol.

Champion: Heavy Stubber, Lasgun, Spring Up.
Heavy Stubber is cool. Cheapa$$ Lasgun for a backup weapon? Clever!

Champion: 2x Stiletto Swords, Chem-synth, Spring Up.
2 x Stiletto Swords is stylish. But, lacks enough punch to be sure of a knockout blow. Again, it is an expensive second Attack. You CANNOT routinely risk losing a H2h fight. I don't love the lack of Umph in the Escher House Weapons Close Combat choices. Again, a Plasma Pistol or Needle Pistol.

5 Gangers: Lasgun, Stub Gun.
They don't need back up Stub guns. Lasguns are reliable, with a long short range. Later, give them Hot Shot to deal with Goliaths.

Juve: Stub Gun.
I love them. But, I just never use them. See below*

Ganger : 2 x Autopistols.
You want it, you aughta have it.

*Juves take up slots. And, too many scenarios have to many restrictions on the number of fighters. Leaving your Heavy Stubber home for a Juve is bad JuJu. That's the problem with a big gang. All too often, don't get to bring them all.

Out of the gate, Eschers with the original Toxin were almost overpowered. Now, they are almost underpowered. Their superior Initiative is great for High Wire Acts and treacherous conditions. And, especially, Carnivorous Plants.
 
Apr 10, 2018
32
49
38
Reading
Small point of order: Toxin's closer to a S4 weapon that ignores wounds. It works if you roll equal or higher than the targets toughness, so T3 is a 3+. Chem synths make it even better.
 
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Nov 22, 2018
25
19
28
La Crosse WI
The gang looks good overall, but I would make the following suggestions:
- No guns on Leader and 2nd champ? (do you play following the 'can't discard weapons from a fighter's card' rule? If yes, I can understand leaving a weapon slot open for later 'expensive guns', but if you are not bound by that rule, there is no reason not to give the leader and Cc champ a lasgun each, so they can take a potshot when running at the enemy is not advisable).
- Are the Stub guns on the lasgun gangers really necessary? Non-upgraded Lasguns have a 2+ Ammo roll and Plentiful, so the gangers will never be using the Stubguns except maybe within their 6'' Short range or in melee, where they have the same attributes as bare fists. It would make sense if said gangers also had an actual melee wepon, but without it I don't really see their usefulness at the start of the campaign. If you took the Stubguns off the 5 lasgunners, you'd get 25 creds, spend 10 to give Lasguns to the leader and champ and spend 15 for a Smoke grenade or Mesh armor on someone.
- As you already note, the Heavy stubber isn't a particularly great gun, especially without Suspensors. I would suggest dropping the H stubber for a Plasmagun (if you still want a ranged champ with some punch) and a CC weapon (Stiletto sword would fit the points) or Photgoggles (to be able to see/shoot trough smoke clouds/darkenss), so this champ can keep up with the other 2 and provide some accurate firepower before the other 2 charge in. Alternatively you can also go for a cheaper gun, like a Needler or the Combi bolter, but rather than getting the 11th member of the gang I would suggest upgrading the Juve to a normal Ganger and spending any leftover credits on armor and/or smoke grenades.
We aren't, but I ran out of cash.

However, I had considered Stubguns as a requirement for melee combat. I hadn't considered that they were basically fists, so that saves me some cash, which can become guns!

I did the Heavy Stubber mainly because I got myself an old metal model. ;) But I've got a plasmagunner too - you're likely right that it's the better choice. I just love the rapid fire 2.

I don't like the look of this list.
- double melee weapons is bad, you get little to no benefit Vs a melee weapon and pistol and lose the range.
- my heavy stubber has been nothing but a [very] expensive disappointment.
- a Juve with just a Stubgun is pretty useless.

I've had a lot of fun with a champion dual-wielding plasma pistols. She replaced my akimbo ganger, because I found said ganger to be absolutely flipping useless.

My Juve does well with a stiletto knife and either a second stiletto knife, autopistol, or Stubgun. Since Juves are terrible shots their greater melee focuses overrides my previous comment about two melee weapons. As soon as you can get an advancement, get the Juve a handflamer.

I would recommend you switch one of the Gangers to a needle rifle, they're accurate at short range and quite lethal
Getting a champion with plasmagun or combi-bolter if you find the credits would also give you more lethality at range.

If you want to get in close, Overseer on your leader would be far more beneficial to boost your Champion/Juve.
Double melee is 100% style. I don't disagree that a gun is usually going to be a better choice. However, the Chem-Synth on dual stilettos has often worked. The dual whips is only one extra attack but 1. An extra attack is nothing to sneeze at and 2. You can't use a pistol at Versatile range, so if she doesn't have two whips, she doesn't get anything on the secondary and I play to have her live at versatile range if I can.

Y'all have convinced me on the stubber.

Juves: Yeah? I don't necessarily disagree. I'm not sure I've ever really seen a great return on my Juves. I have a dual dagger Juve that was somewhat useful.

But the handflamer is a great idea!

Amusingly, my feelings on the needle rifle are down to other people's feelings on the stiletto swords. ;) I feel like a Needler is almost never worth using over a lasgun, because toxin never does anything at range. But I'll try it out!

And I had Overseer last campaign, and our group generally considers it a bit of a cheese move, so I'm leaving it off.

And I do plan to upgrade my dual autos to dual plasma - the model actually has dual plasmas, so she's ready to go!

Thanks for the thoughts all! This is only my second actual gang to play so it's very helpful!
 
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Kiro The Avenger

Gang Champion
Apr 4, 2018
438
411
68
Bristol, UK
As a note, you can't remove wargear from fighters once it's equipped. And Gangers can't take second loadouts, so if you start them off with two autopistols you won't be able to change that.
Of course, your house rules may vary.

I hope I didn't come across as too negative, I really wanted my own akimbo ganger and heavy stubber champion to be good. But they really weren't :(
The two plasma pistols and extra ballistic skill from being a champion really made the world of difference though. I love my akimbo plasma champions (the first did so well and made herself such a reputation I permanently retired her so as not to diminish her!)

I don't like shockwhips much, you sacrifice all of the range advantage from ranged weapons, but don't really get much lethality out of it - since you can't coup de grace from versatile range.

As for the needle rifle, toxin isn't really that different to conventional attacks. It's effectively strength 4 Damagd 1 without a chemsynth, and S4 with +1 to wound with a chemsynth. Plus it bypasses wounds
That makes a needle rifle a very effective option with +2 at short range (yes please telescopic sight) and AP2. Orlock players hate you when you focus their 3W leader!
 
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