Kill Team 2.0

JawRippa

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Apparently it'll be close to Warcry. Here is video explaining some new things.

A krieger has 7 wounds. Lasgun shot is 4 attacks: you roll 4D6 and hope for 4+ and 6's are crits (whatever that means, maybe 2 hits instead of 1). Defence is rolling same ammount of dice and your Defence stat is how high you have to roll. So a krieger shooting a krieger with 5+ defence with a lasgun, will have their hits cancelled by defender rolling 4D6 and every 5+ is cancel. Also we have stat Action Point Limit (usually 2) which might hint at some action pool system.

Discuss
 

HorribleHedgehog

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Hope there'll be a lot more options for equipping and personalising your kill-team. I thought the 1st ed to be painfully bland in that regard - it felt way too much cut-and-paste mini-40k instead of a game of individual soldiers.

The box is looking mightily tempting with those plastic kommandos and orky terrain, but I need to know more about the rules before I make up my mind.
 

TopsyKretts

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It was bland, yes. Genestealer Cultists are perfect for comparison because they're available in both games (and 40k as well), and they only have a fraction of options in Kill Team compared to Necromunda. On the other hand, I prefer much simpler and limited options for Kill Team, because having hundreds of weapons and equipment is too much in my opinion (even for Necromunda!). Also, more options require stricter balance, otherwise extra options only means that some options are reduced to traps. This will only punish new and fluff players who haven't studied (or doesn't care about) the power-cost efficiency.
 
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JawRippa

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I would like to see morality system reworked or removed entirely. In Kill Team only few factions suffer from it. Others straight out ignore morale via high LD or special rules. Also finger crossed for charge being a double move. 2D6" nonsense belongs in big 40k.
 

Crazy Ivan

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I would like to see morality system reworked or removed entirely. In Kill Team only few factions suffer from it. Others straight out ignore morale via high LD or special rules. Also finger crossed for charge being a double move. 2D6" nonsense belongs in big 40k.
From what I heard "charge" will not exist in KT2.0. Generally most models have 2 AP (Action Points) available to them per turn and what you'd do is first use an AP to move adjacent to an enemy model and then the next AP to do a melee attack.
It was bland, yes. Genestealer Cultists are perfect for comparison because they're available in both games (and 40k as well), and they only have a fraction of options in Kill Team compared to Necromunda. On the other hand, I prefer much simpler and limited options for Kill Team, because having hundreds of weapons and equipment is too much in my opinion (even for Necromunda!). Also, more options require stricter balance, otherwise extra options only means that some options are reduced to traps. This will only punish new and fluff players who haven't studied (or doesn't care about) the power-cost efficiency.
From what we can see in the book, for the Krieg Veteran team there's 12 datasheets (some with options for equipment, like the Sergeant, the Confidant, and the Gunner):

  1. Sergeant (Chainsword/Power Sword/bayonet + Bolt pistol/Plasma pistol/Laspistol/Boltgun)
  2. Trooper (Lasgun + bayonet)
  3. Sniper (long-las + bayonet)
  4. Gunner (Melta/Plasma/Grenade Launcher/Flamer + bayonet)
  5. Comms (Lasgun + bayonet)
  6. Medic (Lasgun + bayonet)
  7. Confidant (Chainsword/Bayonet + Bolt pistol/Laspistol/Lasgun/Boltgun)
  8. Zealot (Lasgun + bayonet)
  9. Bruiser ((Lasgun + bayonet + trench club)
  10. Demolitions (Lasgun + bayonet + some other weapon (can't make out), presumably demo charges?)
  11. Spotter (Lasgun + bayonet + some other weapon (can't make out), possibly artillery strike?)
  12. Hardened (Lasgun + bayonet +some other weapon (can't make out), presumably augmentic arm)
Most of these can be taken a maximum of 1 times, except for the Trooper, who can be taken two times. Most of the guys who have the same equipment as the trooper have some sort of extra special rules which weren't clearly legible so far.

There's no points visible so far so it's as yet unknown how you actually build a team.

For the Kommandos, we can see on the models at least:
  1. Nob with Power Klaw (and I also saw a Big Choppa on the sprue)
  2. Boy with lots of knives
  3. Shoota
  4. regular old Axe (choppa) + slugga
  5. Breacha (storm ram)
  6. Rokkit Launcha
  7. Burna
  8. Sniper rifle (yes really!)
  9. Some kind of fancy (Kustom?) shoota on the Comms Boy
  10. Grot with grapnel gun
  11. Bomb squig.
Definitely more options than current Kommandos have, and there may be more in the book/sprues not shown on the models so far.
 
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HorribleHedgehog

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From what I heard "charge" will not exist in KT2.0. Generally most models have 2 AP (Action Points) available to them per turn and what you'd do is first use an AP to move adjacent to an enemy model and then the next AP to do a melee attack.

From what we can see in the book, for the Krieg Veteran team there's 12 datasheets (some with options for equipment, like the Sergeant, the Confidant, and the Gunner):

  1. Sergeant (Chainsword/Power Sword/bayonet + Bolt pistol/Plasma pistol/Laspistol/Boltgun)
  2. Trooper (Lasgun + bayonet)
  3. Sniper (long-las + bayonet)
  4. Gunner (Melta/Plasma/Grenade Launcher/Flamer + bayonet)
  5. Comms (Lasgun + bayonet)
  6. Medic (Lasgun + bayonet)
  7. Confidant (Chainsword/Bayonet + Bolt pistol/Laspistol/Lasgun/Boltgun)
  8. Zealot (Lasgun + bayonet)
  9. Bruiser ((Lasgun + bayonet + trench club)
  10. Demolitions (Lasgun + bayonet + some other weapon (can't make out), presumably demo charges?)
  11. Spotter (Lasgun + bayonet + some other weapon (can't make out), possibly artillery strike?)
  12. Hardened (Lasgun + bayonet +some other weapon (can't make out), presumably augmentic arm)
Most of these can be taken a maximum of 1 times, except for the Trooper, who can be taken two times. Most of the guys who have the same equipment as the trooper have some sort of extra special rules which weren't clearly legible so far.

There's no points visible so far so it's as yet unknown how you actually build a team.

For the Kommandos, we can see on the models at least:
  1. Nob with Power Klaw (and I also saw a Big Choppa on the sprue)
  2. Boy with lots of knives
  3. Shoota
  4. regular old Axe (choppa) + slugga
  5. Breacha (storm ram)
  6. Rokkit Launcha
  7. Burna
  8. Sniper rifle (yes really!)
  9. Some kind of fancy (Kustom?) shoota on the Comms Boy
  10. Grot with grapnel gun
  11. Bomb squig.
Definitely more options than current Kommandos have, and there may be more in the book/sprues not shown on the models so far.
The Krieg datasheets do not fill me with confidence. Looks like it's designed to make a single type of a team with the only choices of consequence being how you arm your leader and gunner...

Could've at least had the option to swap the lasguns of the troopers and trooper-likes for shotguns or autoguns. But of course that wouldn't fly, since the sprues don't have those.
 

Crazy Ivan

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The Krieg datasheets do not fill me with confidence. Looks like it's designed to make a single type of a team with the only choices of consequence being how you arm your leader and gunner...

Could've at least had the option to swap the lasguns of the troopers and trooper-likes for shotguns or autoguns. But of course that wouldn't fly, since the sprues don't have those.
Yeah the variety is not particularly stunning. Also again no Heavy Weapons so far. That said, In theory there could be more datasheets and they simply haven't shown them yet - they were very careful to only show those few pages in the Octarius book (which should contain the datasheets for the Krieg and Kommandos).

That said, I am happy there seems to be a reason to have (many) models armed with Lasguns as I really like the look of that and fluffwise it seems off to send just a bunch of plasma gunners on special operations (as was the case until now for Guard Kill Teams, in practice).

And from the perspective of an easily accesible game, I'm all for having all (viable) options available in the box. I know many here will not agree, but it does make the game more beginner-friendly.
 
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TopsyKretts

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Are these the rules or simply pre-made fighter cards similar to those in the Necromunda starter box? Because any pre-made fighter cards are worthless when discussing options and possibilities for a team.
 

Crazy Ivan

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Are these the rules or simply pre-made fighter cards similar to those in the Necromunda starter box? Because any pre-made fighter cards are worthless when discussing options and possibilities for a team.
These datasheets were in the actual book, not separate cards, so I would assume they include the full options. In any case, for the Sergeant,. Confidant (basically a Corporal or second-in-command) and Gunner, these datasheets do include different options for the model. The others all appear to have set lay-outs, though I would note that most of them previously would have been covered by the basic Guardsman datasheet, just with some added equipment in some cases or simply a different "specialism".

Again, I kind of like it. It gives you the option to have a distinctive squad of archetypes without needing all of them to be armed with super-awesome guns (which again in case of the Guard at least was never very fluffy - almost all Guard characters in novels etc. are usually just armed with lasguns, and I'd love to have grunts armed with those and still be useful in a game as Kill Team).
 

HorribleHedgehog

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I'd love for lasgun-grunts to be useful, as well. But I'd also love my grizzled team of specialists to have options to lug around some specialist or non-standard kit too. For me, getting to kit out my characters according to their personality and role is one of the main draws of a skirmish game.
 

Galtarr

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It's certainly taken much from Warcry but I think there's some key differences. Opposed defence ala Blackstone or cursed city means the defender is not just a blob of hit points. As does bringing the save back.

Both of these are an improvement on Warcry. (I do feel saying it's close to Warcry is provocative and unhelpful depending on people's prejudices, better to discuss each point on its own merits, though provocation is fine to get a discussion going)

Really 7 wounds rather than say 3 wounds and 4 fleshwounds is just cleaner in my opinion. So I'm fine with that as I don't want rolling for rolling sake.

Also crit 4/5/6+ rather than all crits 6+ seems to give some better differentiation than in Warcry also.

Level of equipment options is key. Some factions may have seemed very limited in KT, but marines had oodles of choice..

I second the morality rework being needed.

Hope to see some campaign stuff get teased before long. Never got as far as KT campaign.

As well as how activation pool works - both Warcry and Necro don't handle horde faction's particularly well.

https://www.warhammer-community.com...gly-good-thanks-to-the-new-bespoke-datacards/

Couple of extra pages have been added (also available at bottom of kill team webpage) not sure they add much new info.

Saves only apply to ranged combat.
 

Caledore

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I mostly like that they are making Kill Team its own thing instead of taking a lot of the rules for 40k, but changing movement to shapes is really baffling. At least they match up to a certain number of inches so you don't have to use their special measuring tools.
 

stato

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I mostly like that they are making Kill Team its own thing instead of taking a lot of the rules for 40k, but changing movement to shapes is really baffling. At least they match up to a certain number of inches so you don't have to use their special measuring tools.
I like that they have changed that, there will be differences in stats compared to 40k rules and far too many people will get hung up that X weapon has the 'wrong' range compared to Y. Give it its own mechanism and if people just get on with using it there wont be problems learning it.
 

Galtarr

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I mostly like that they are making Kill Team its own thing instead of taking a lot of the rules for 40k, but changing movement to shapes is really baffling. At least they match up to a certain number of inches so you don't have to use their special measuring tools.
Is it because inches aren't universally known. I mean I'm familiar with both inches and centimetres. But are some countries only taught metric?

I know Xwing and armada use proprietary range rulers rather than actual measurements but it doesn't feel quite as forced there.

I think rewriting KT ruleset is going to be quite divisive. There are some like me who think anything has to be better than current ruleset. And others who can't see the need to change from current and any move resembling Warcry is 'dumbing down'.

Not sure if whether people are 40K players makes a difference.

More rules drip feed.
https://www.warhammer-community.com...-is-a-deadly-dance-of-death-in-new-kill-team/

Combat is opposed dice rolls, where successes can be used to hit or parry. Which is a massive divergence from Warcry for people thinking in those terms.

Movement is fundamentally still in inches. Doesn't say but reads as if there isn't a charge which admittedly is warcry-esque.

Id like distance into combat to be fixed or limited randomness (e.g. D3) rather than wildly random (D6 or shudder 2D6).
 
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Jacob Dryearth

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I gotta say I'm quite intriguedby all this. I really like Warcry, but was very disappointed with the current Kill Team. This seems to take some of the good from WC while keeping some of the flair of KT such as specialisms and more loadout options. And the close combat reminds me of Inquisitor parry and strike rules, just extremely streamlined.
 

Willnox

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Combat being opposed dice roles is seriously great for a Skirmish wargame. It's such a breath of fresh air when both players are rolling at the same time rejoicing for good results or lamenting the dice gods for cursing them. It keeps the game play fluid and people will be more engrossed and engaged as opposed to "oh let me take my turn while you are playing on your phone, I'll let you know how many armor saves to take" I'm really excited now and can't wait to see what campaign play has in store.

As a IG player anything I can do to not basically be forced to play 12 plasma guns in Kill team the better it will be. 40k lite kill team never made any narrative sense.

Oh and Shadow War Armageddon should have been the way forward for skirmish wargaming. ;)
 
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Caledore

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Is it because inches aren't universally known. I mean I'm familiar with both inches and centimetres. But are some countries only taught metric?

Eh, I'd argue that you don't really need to understand inches to use them. You just get the ruler and follow the numbers on them, and I feel like numbers are more intuitive for measurement than shapes - even if they were nonsense numbers.

It's hardly a deal-breaker for me, I just find it an odd change. Overall I am excited about this edition of KT because it's so different. The last edition never interested me because the rules looked so bland. I think it's much better that it'll be more of its own thing instead of a modified version of 40k.
 

JawRippa

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Gotta be honest, shape nonsense is making me a tad worried about overall quality of new ruleset.
POEe8ufHAUw.jpg

just in case, the above pic is a joke from /tg/ how unit profiles are going to look like in 10th edition . However KT2.0 profiles are actually pretty nonsensical looking.

I really like the fact that they are going with alternating attacks sequence. Maybe the same could be done for YCE down the line?
 

Galtarr

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Gotta be honest, shape nonsense is making me a tad worried about overall quality of new ruleset.
View attachment 135071
just in case, the above pic is a joke from /tg/ how unit profiles are going to look like in 10th edition . However KT2.0 profiles are actually pretty nonsensical looking.

I really like the fact that they are going with alternating attacks sequence. Maybe the same could be done for YCE down the line?
I don't get the driver for the shape nonsense. The last Warhammer community said ultimately measurements are in inches so you can stick with tape measure if you prefer...

So why?......

It works where you only have a single range such as in X-wing shooting... A single s/m/l range ruler is fine. Movement templates handle moving so range is the only thing measured.

As soon as you want more granularity than that... And use distance for both movement and shooting, and possibly other effects. It just obfuscates the distance.

Basically everything is in multiples of 2". That's all the shapes do for you.