N18 Line of Sight and Infiltrate

[JawRippa]

I've been re-reading rules regarding Line of Sight and noticed that first sentence mentions that facing does not matter for Line of sight. I've always assumed that LoS meant essentially fighter's POV. So, in actuality, all fighters have 360 line of sight?

Does this mean by extension that infiltrating fighter can't set up literally behind enemy's back unless infiltrating behind an impassable terrain, as he is being "seen"?

Spoiler: LoS

Spoiler: Infiltrate

 

[sumpthing]

I'd always assumed that was the intention

 

[Ben_S]

This has had extensive discussion (with no clear resolution):

N18 - Infiltrate

The skill states: If this fighter should be set up at the start of a battle, they may instead placed to one side. Then, immediately before the start of the first round, their controlling player may set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is NOT VISIBLE to any enemy fighters, and not within...

yaktribe.games

Edit: I've just noticed that you were actually a participant in that discussion, so apologies if I've somehow missed the point here, but this thread does seem to be asking the same question so I assume you might simply have forgotten the previous discussion.

 

[JawRippa]

This has had extensive discussion (with no clear resolution):

N18 - Infiltrate

The skill states: If this fighter should be set up at the start of a battle, they may instead placed to one side. Then, immediately before the start of the first round, their controlling player may set them up anywhere on the battlefield that is NOT VISIBLE to any enemy fighters, and not within...

yaktribe.games

Edit: I've just noticed that you were actually a participant in that discussion, so apologies if I've somehow missed the point here, but this thread does seem to be asking the same question so I assume you might simply have forgotten the previous discussion.

I remember that thread, but here I'm discussing how LoS actually works (can affect many rules other than infiltrate.)

 

[Squee]

LoS and Vision Arc are two separate things. The whole thing isn't really well defined, as the wording on Pg. 46 in the rulebook can be interpreted differently.
However for sanity's sake and balance we ruled that LoS and VA are different and independent of each other. There are cases that check both LoS and VA, like picking targets for shooting, then there are cases that check only VA, like picking targets for HtH, and then there are cases that check only LoS, like infiltrate. Each case has it's rules spelled individually, so it more or less works.

 

[JawRippa]

LoS and Vision Arc are two separate things. The whole thing isn't really well defined, as the wording on Pg. 46 in the rulebook can be interpreted differently.
However for sanity's sake and balance we ruled that LoS and VA are different and independent of each other. There are cases that check both LoS and VA, like picking targets for shooting, then there are cases that check only VA, like picking targets for HtH, and then there are cases that check only LoS, like infiltrate. Each case has it's rules spelled individually, so it more or less works.

Most confusing part is that they specifically mention "first fighter's point of view" in LoS description. When I was reading it the first time I've thought it meant view from fighter's eyes, like in FPS games.

 

[Thorgor]

'Visible' is never defined in the rules. You'll have to decide for yourself whether it means LoS, FoV, or LoS + FoV. And whether stuff like Pitch Black factors into that at all.
My guess is that whenever they mention visibility in any way (even when they only use LoS or FoV) they actually mean both at the same time.

 

[Squee]

My guess is that whenever they mention visibility in any way (even when they only use LoS or FoV) they actually mean both at the same time.

That is one way to look at it, and don't get me wrong, it's a viable interpretation. However it's not good for the already abysmally bad game balance IMO, since it allows for things like Infiltration 6" behind your back -> "Take the Initiative"/"Seize the initiative" -> Charge -> GG. And while this is admittedly also possible with the different interpretation of LoS, it's much harder to pull it off and would require some specific terrain setups.

 

[Thorgor]

That is one way to look at it, and don't get me wrong, it's a viable interpretation. However it's not good for the already abysmally bad game balance IMO, since it allows for things like Infiltration 6" behind your back -> "Take the Initiative"/"Seize the initiative" -> Charge -> GG. And while this is admittedly also possible with the different interpretation of LoS, it's much harder to pull it off and would require some specific terrain setups.

Yeah I agree (and, as I mentioned in the other thread, it turns the pre-game into a time-consuming and not-that-fun mini-game).
I think it's more of an issue with Infiltrate as a concept than with how visibility is handled though. And you can extend that to Needle ways and the like. Being able to deploy in such non-standard ways breaks too many things in this game imo.

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

Huh, funny. I never noticed the distinction, but have always instinctively played infiltrate to assume models can see 360. Something about deployment happening before the game starts made me ignore vision arc.

 

[Lachi]

I think, both LoS and VA need to be taken into account. There is the headding 'Visibility' in the Rulebook with the subheadings Vision Arc, Line of Sight, Walls... and Cover.
Vision Arc determines the Area that is visible to a Fighter. Then, if there is an actual LoS is determined by terrain and other fighters. So, I think, first you should check VA, and only things that are within the VA can be within LoS.
I know the wording of the Necromunda rules is not very clear but to me (and our group in general) it makes sense. We also agree that Infiltrate can be very broken, but it is a common occurance in the action genre that some 'inflitrator' senaks up from behind to take out someone who is watching the other way (and is distracted be enemy fighters, gunfire etc.).