Local Group Poll results.

Al_Weeks

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I asked a few questions of my local group with regards to some issues that have been discussed in the various threads.

This was an attempt to get outside the bubble of the forum and see what others think.

To be clear these were all asked in isolation (i.e. just consider the question and not with respect to the other questions) nor was my local group told about the proposed YCE edition.

I think it makes an interesting read.

It's no scientific, it's not a significant sample size it's just a thought exercises.

I wonder if a better defined series of questions might be worth creating on Survey monkey (or similar) and then posting on the various necromunda communities?





The only thing that might be worth bearing in mind when looking at these results is that only a out 4 of the 14 members of my local group have played the original necromunda.
 

Galtarr

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Mar 1, 2017
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I'd say those responses would mirror those of our group. Which probably had a similar proportion having had experience of oldmunda.

In fact tempted to ask my group same questions to increase your sample size...
 

Al_Weeks

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Dec 22, 2014
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I'd say those responses would mirror those of our group. Which probably had a similar proportion having had experience of oldmunda.

In fact tempted to ask my group same questions to increase your sample size...
Go ahead.
 

Petitioner's City

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Really good idea, although the election commission might suggest questions are unfairly weighted :D

But honestly it's good to have this kind of data, because really we are in a bubble - even in my group I've been surprised what my players have pushed back on, when I've thought they are great ideas (including my beloved comparative WS table!).

If you post them in the 2017 group, the admins asked you check permission before surveying - at least for anything to do with the YCE/YAQ - they were spicy after I shared it there due to the rude reactions it caused/not wishing to antagonise the community, and deleted my sharing.
 
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Al_Weeks

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Really good idea, although the election commission might suggest questions are unfairly weighted :D

But honestly it's good to have this kind of data, because really we are in a bubble - even in my group I've been surprised what my players have pushed back on, when I've thought they are great ideas (including my beloved comparative WS table!).

If you post them in the 2017 group, the admins asked you check permission before surveying - at least for anything to do with the YCE/YAQ - they were spicy after I shared it there due to the rude reactions it caused/not wishing to antagonise the community, and deleted my sharing.
Oh I'm all for going about recording the questions to elicit a better more neutrally worded survey.

It's might be worth the project putting some energy into getting an official one together that we can send out covering areas that we know have had a lot of discussion on in the current suggestion phase, and use that data when we look at what rule changes we want to make in the first draft of the rules that would then go to an alpha playtest.

The answer that suprised my the most was how many people are in favour of random charges. It's really made me question my own opinions on that matter.
 
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Thorgor

Of The YAQ
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Interesting. It could be worth doing something similar on a larger scale.
One thing to keep in mind is that people who are currently playing N17+ are not necessarily our (sole/primary) target, as they already have a Necromunda game they like enough to play. Not sure how we could easily reach people who were so disappointed by this new version that they never played it.

One thing that need to change is how the question are worded. My concern is not that they could be weighted, but you have mixed "are you happy with how <thing> currently works?" questions with "would like <this> to be changed?" and "would you like <this particular change> to happen?" questions, which make it difficult to compare the answers.
 
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Al_Weeks

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Interesting. It could be worth doing something similar on a larger scale.
One thing to keep in mind is that people we are currently playing N17+ are not necessarily our (sole/primary) target, as they already have a Necromunda game they like enough to play. Not sure how we could easily reach people who were so disappointed by this new version that they never played it.

To an extent yes, but I think most N17/N20 players are aware that the game has its flaws and would be open to using a community edition. Most groups, even the biggest cheerleaders of N17/N20 use some level.of house rules to fix things they dont like. I personally think it's worth considering the responses to a survey from any member of these groups that gives us their time to fill it in

I dont propose we use the result as a blanket 'change this area, dont touch that one' etc. But at least well know what areas are more open to change, and where we might expect some strong dislike if we made large changes. Aka it informs us..

One thing that need to change is how the question are worded. My concern is not that they could be weighted, but you have mixed "are you happy with how <thing> currently works?" questions with "would like <this> to be changed?" and "would you like <this particular change> to happen?" questions, which make it difficult to compare the answers.
Exaclty, my questions are far from perfect. Thought should be put into as clear and neutrally worded questions as possible. That's a group effort.
 

TopsyKretts

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The only thing that might be worth bearing in mind when looking at these results is that only a out 4 of the 14 members of my local group have played the original necromunda.
It is very important to have experience with original/previous editions to identify sub-optimal game mechanics. This allows for comparison, noticing what has improved and what has degenerated. I would say some things have improved and does not need much attention for YCE. For example the 'new' Zone Mortalis board style was very different, but I liked it. I can accept most new 'functional' mechanics. Other parts have degenerated and is unplayable in my experience (for example campaign and becoming Engaged to utilize close combat).

Having played other games too (and playtested a lot of house rules extensively), I know some proposed changes will work and not cause much problems.
 
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Al_Weeks

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It is very important to have experience with original/previous editions to identify sub-optimal game mechanics. This allows for comparison, noticing what has improved and what has degenerated. I would say some things have improved and does not need much attention for YCE. For example the 'new' Zone Mortalis board style was very different, but I liked it. I can accept most new 'functional' mechanics. Other parts have degenerated and is unplayable in my experience (for example campaign and becoming Engaged to utilize close combat).

Having played other games too (and playtested a lot of house rules extensively), I know some proposed changes will work and not cause much problems.
So two things to consider, the respondents are all veteran gamers to an extent, so they are able to compare N17/20 to other systems if not the original etc.

Secondly, is it worth having a did you play N95/NEC question in any survey, that way at least we can look at how this effects the response to other questions.

I'm not proposing a mammoth survey. I would say as a ball park number aiming for 20 or so well worded questions covering the basics areas we've identified.

They could be high level or specific:

E.g. high level, do you feel the balance between shooting and melee is currently about right ?

Or more specific : something about blasts and templates.

A 20 question survey that takes 5 mins to fill in should stand a better chance of getting a decent number of responses.

Who is it responsible for community engagement/press officer again? I don't want to step on their toes.
 

Al_Weeks

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Where would that survey be hosted? Here? Anywhere else? How to avoid abuse/spam votes?
I'm not sure, I had presumed we could use one of the survey tools that seem to be prolific and just share the link.

I will fully admit that it's not something I've done before, but you are right that this needs to be considered.

I'm hoping there is someone who knows more about this sort of thing on the team.
 

TopsyKretts

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Abuse/spam votes probably won't be a problem. But it could be. In general, I hoped we could stick mainly to yaktribe, because I have a hard time focusing if we utilize all sorts of external resources. One exception could of course be made. Getting outside opinions is of course problematic if it requires a yaktribe account.
 

Al_Weeks

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Abuse/spam votes probably won't be a problem. But it could be. In general, I hoped we could stick mainly to yaktribe, because I have a hard time focusing if we utilize all sorts of external resources. One exception could of course be made. Getting outside opinions is of course problematic if it requires a yaktribe account.
Starting with engagement with the wider Yaktribe community isnt a bad place to start.

It doesnt stop us from sharing the link to the thread to outside groups, but if people have to go through creating an account then it may turn some people off.

I have a feeling most members of the wider N17/20 community have a Yaktribe account if only for using Malo's tools.
 
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Kiro The Avenger

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I think polling the wider community is a great idea.
Although it's important to consider that "are you happy with X" and "do you believe X could be improved" are two different questions.
I'm perfectly happy with almost everything in Necromunda, it's a fun game. But it can be improved.

So I would suggest we ask questions in roughly the form of;
"What do you think of X?"
* I like X and don't think it could be improved
* I like X, but there's room for improvement
* I don't like X, it should be improved/removed
* No opinion
 

JawRippa

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Mar 31, 2017
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I like the idea, but people are afraid of any sort of change by default and answers in the poll will reflect that. The question that is worded like "are you happy with X?" is pretty vague.

For example: Am I happy with advancement system for example? Well, for starters, I like that XP is easier to calculate and keep track of, but select and buy kind of system makes all players get the same advancements. I guess it could be worse, as in no advancement system at all, or experimental homebrew system that does not work well... So that means I'm happy with what I have now?
 

Al_Weeks

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I like the idea, but people are afraid of any sort of change by default and answers in the poll will reflect that. The question that is worded like "are you happy with X?" is pretty vague.

For example: Am I happy with advancement system for example? Well, for starters, I like that XP is easier to calculate and keep track of, but select and buy kind of system makes all players get the same advancements. I guess it could be worse, as in no advancement system at all, or experimental homebrew system that does not work well... So that means I'm happy with what I have now?

Well I agree that questions need to be carefully thought out and your right to warn that too open a question can lead to people thinking too deeply into it and defaulting to the status quo.

But even the quick set of questions I asked highlights two changes that were generally favoured by a reasonable majority.

1) Allow consolidation into melee
2) Impose a to hit penalty for blasts targeting a point on the table.

So although the responses didnt show as much desire for change as we might like it does show that people are open to it.

Maybe it's because of the closed wording of those questions, should X be allowed or should a penalty be applied etc.

If your worry about it being swamped with conservative responses we could self select the initial sample by asking just Yaktribe members, and then decide based on that if we want to ask more widely?

We could even trial run the questions on member of this team (because I bet we'll still get some areas that are very mixed in opinion).
 

JawRippa

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There are multiple reasons why poll would not reflect a proper opinion of the community as a whole:
  1. Local houserules. Everyone is playing with their own list of houserules which vary in terms of how radical they are.
  2. Tactic cards. Some groups play with these, some don't. When a player can choose tactics (or manipulates chances of drawing needed tactics from deck by deliberately making it small), even current melee becomes "viable" because with the right combination of tactics you can sling fighters across the board or infiltrate fighters in your opponent's face.
  3. Gang balance. Playing versus full melee GCG and full melee Cawdor is very different experience. If you've played throughout a campaign exclusively on Mortalis against a GCG or Goliath who steamrolled their way through opposition, would you be glad to hear suggestion to allow engaging from pinned state, removing randomness from charges or increasing charge ranges?
  4. Different sources of rules. Getting steamrolled by melee Goliath from example can be even harsher if they are using genesmithing from House of Chains.
  5. Familiarity with older versions of Necromunda. I do not want to make it sound elitist, but players who tried or read through older rules of Necromunda have a bigger picture compared to players who played only N17+. It is not mandatory, but makes it easier to see what works for the modern game and what does not.
This is why I'm firm that a poll of this sort should not be used as a direction for YCE design.
Perhaps a question that could help shaping YCE design would be "What kind of houserules is your local group using? Have your tried any radical houserules and if yes, which ones were enjoyable?"
 
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almic85

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Oct 30, 2014
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A community survey sounds like a solid idea though it might help if the questions are put into a more structured order such as breaking them down into 5 or so questions for each heading such as movement, shooting, close combat, end phase, etc.

you can then start with a general question on how satisfied they are with each heading or how much change they would like to see before going into more specific questions that we want to ask.

It might also be a good idea to allow a free form answer section under each heading if people want to comment further.
 

Al_Weeks

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Dec 22, 2014
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Ok so does anyone have any suggestions for specific questions they think should be asked?

@almic85

That's a great suggestion. We just need to be careful we dont have too many.

I think at the moment we should focus on the core rules and not ask about scenarios or campaign systems etc.
 

Al_Weeks

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Dec 22, 2014
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This is why I'm firm that a poll of this sort should not be used as a direction for YCE design.

I guess it's up to us as to how much we use any results to influence design, I'm not proposing that the results become some sort of holy text that can't be deviated from, but it's useful info that becomes part of the discussion.

I was supprised at the answers when I pulled my group, especially on random charges. I'm interested to see what more people think, because honeslty it has made me stop and reconsider some of my thoughts.

As it is, on the matter of random charge I still believe that a fixed charge range is best, however it has made me think of other changes that are still random but either increase the reliability or the range (such as roll 2d3 pick the highest etc) but nothing feels like it works for me.
 
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