Mad Skillz - Review and discussion

Axelius

Ganger
Nov 28, 2017
105
147
48
Sweden
Well, I'm pretty new to Necromunda, but as someone talked about getting a collected discussion on the skills I thought, hey why not me? I've been working with game design for a bit and over the last year or so I've been involved in the design of our own system that shares a number of features with the new edition of Necromunda, so I thought some of my insights from there would be applicable.

I'll be going through the skills by group, and I'll be reviewing them as if they had a cost of either picking a primary skill or rolling as a secondary. This primarily to see how they hold up against +1WS/BS/S/T. To start with I'll do the four "Primary" skills of Eschers and Goliaths (Agility, Brawn, Combat and Ferocity) as well as Leadership.


Agility - Watch me soar, like a leaf on the wind

Catfall - This one I think is deceptively good, at least if you're playing with a lot of vertical terrain. Halving the distance may not seem like much, but it means that you'll be able to traverse down 6" of terrain with absolutely no problem whatsoever, and you'll have to fall more than 10" before it starts hurting for real. A hidden bonus is that unless the injury took the fighter OOA or SI, they can avoid pinning from a fall on an initiative check. It is, of course, worthless if you play on ZM.

Clamber - You climb faster up or down. Solidly meh, Catfall is better for moving down and gives you protection against unplanned falls. Also worthless on ZM.

Dodge - A chance to avoid all effects of an attack, seems good right? Not really. The chance is very low and will interestingly only trigger on taking a wound, meaning that an attack that hit and did not cause a wound will still transfer its effect. Against template weapons they're even worse, as the model will have to clear the template fully to be able to dodge, which against blasts they can only really do if they are more than 1" away from the center. It's also badly written here since presumably when Dodge is triggered (after wound roll) you've already taken away the template...

Mighty Leap - Some discussion on this, at its worst it is simply worse than normal leaps, at its best you can get tons of extra movement as long as you keep jumping. For now, it should probably be avoided and you're better off with Catfall to protect you from failed falls.

Spring Up - I'd say this one is one of the better Agility skills, since Pinned is a pretty common condition. Not having to spend an action on getting up can be crucial for your melee gals (and guys), as they'll be able to charge. It's also good for shooters, since if you got pinned you're likely to be in range and LOS of an enemy, giving you the ability to aim for that +1 bonus, or be able to move into cover after firing back.

Sprint - Do a Double move as your second move if you move twice. Good if you need to get across the map fast, but it doesn't do anything to impact the board state and you might maybe use it twice per game, if ever. Skip.


Conclusion - A skill group with several duds, or at least underperforming skills, but also a few good ones. I guess you can randomly roll on this skill group as there's only one *bad* skill, but you're better off picking something instead.


Brawn - "Goliath Crush, Goliath Smash! "(oh, and Cawdor too, I guess)

Bull Rush - Ok, let's begin this with saying, getting +1 S is cheaper to just flat out buy than to pick this skill (although it will raise your gang rating more), for an effect that is permanent, instead on just conditional. Secondarily, +1S is underwhelming on Goliath gangers, Champions and Leaders, since the magic number is 6 (turns those 3+ to 2+ against all the T3 gangs). It only has an effect if you're going up against other Goliaths. Skip this one and get a Strength Increase instead.

Bulging Biceps - There's some discussion on this, if it only ignores the effects in the Unwieldy traits description, then you're better off grabbing a Suspensor for your Krumper, although it still has some uses with the Renderizer. For Cawdor it's even less interesting atm, due to the weakness of the Legacy Unwieldy weapons, and even if the Heavy Stubber was "fixed" it's superior range means it isn't as reliant as the Krumper on being able to move and fire. For the Renderizer it still has a use, since it can give you the additional CC attack. However, since you'll probably want a ranged sidearm for a guy with a Renderizer it is probably only worth it if you get a Stub/Plasma Combi or a Plasma Pistol. And that attack will still be worse than the ones you're dishing out with the Renderizer. There's better options out there.
If, however, it allows you to ignore other limitations from Unwieldy (weapon slots, etc), it becomes a MUCH better skill, that will allow for a bunch more versatility (dual wielding Renderizer anyone?).

Crushing Blow - Better than Bull Rush, since it is active on all kinds of melee attacks, not just the Charge ones, although it can only effect one attack. Again, +1S is underwhelming on Goliaths, but the bonus Damage can be nice to securely make sure that whoever you hit stays down. It's better for Cawdor, since they can more effectively use the Strength bonus, but it's probably easier to just get another weapon for the increased damage, and even a single Injury die will still result in 66% OOA in a 1v1. Get +1S instead.

Headbutt - This one is actually pretty nice, at least if you don't have access to Combat, since it gives you another powerful attack if you got two actions in melee. The Headbutt has an 89% chance against T3 and a 75% chance against T4, meaning that a Goliath that headbutts a T3 fighter has a 74% chance of inflicting a 2 Damage wound on them (before save).

Hurl - Ok, now we're talking. This one might not be that great, actually, but it is plain hilarious. Being able to chuck your enemies at each other to make them pinned is theoretically amazing. Also, throwing people over ledges or into dangerous terrain, is going to make you do many evil laughs. It has a huge FUN potential, and can actually be somewhat useful too. Also, mind that this movement is one of the few kinds that will not stop if it moves the fighter within 1" of an enemy.

Iron Jaw - Your Toughness is 2 higher against unarmed attacks. Utter crap, just pick +1T instead.


Conclusion - Don't roll on this table, especially as Goliath, you're better off just taking +1S or +1T instead, and that is often not needed. Depending on rulings there are a few skills that can have their place in careful builds,.


Combat - "What do we say to Death? Not today!" (Oh, hi again Cawdor!)

Combat Master - Always giving Assists and never receiving penalties can be nice, but as you're unlikely to often be outnumbered more than 2 to 1 +1WS is better on the penalties side. Always giving Assists is better, but I'm really unsure on how that is going to play out. Since you have to Charge or be Charged to become engaged, it's hard to say how often you'll be able to just assist, and I think you'll often be able to adjust where you engage to stay out of ganging up situations. Could be decent in a long running brawl, but even then you're spending a skill to give a bonus of +1 to one or two other fighters, when you could instead just kill the person you're assisting on. Probably not something you'll want to pick, but not the world if you get it by rolling.

Counter-Attack - Now we're talking, with the right build this could turn your fighter into a nightmare to attack in melee. Combine this with a pair of Parry weapons and Step Aside (later) and your enemy will hate you in close combat. Not something you want to take as your first skill generally, but a solid second pick.

Disarm - Solidly meh, again a 1/6 chance of doing something. Not the worst you could roll, but not something you'll want to pick. Take +1S and kill your enemy instead.

Parry - Get an extra Parry, another solid thing for becoming invulnerable in Close Combat, but Step Aside is better. An ok Random result, but there are better skills in the group.

Rain of Blows - Headbutt, but BETTER. Makes you able to do a second Fight action in a turn. This means a Dual Wielding Champion gets to do 6 attacks in a turn they began engaged, with a 2" consolidation move inbetween, combine this with Overseer to dance through your enemies, showered in blood. Really good pick.

Step Aside - My favorite, on an initiative check, just ignore a hit in close combat. On an Escher with 2+ Initiative it is crazy reliable. Combine with Parry Weapons and Counter Attack to make you nigh on impossible to hit and dish out a lot of hurt back if they were the one charging you.


Compared to Agility and Brawn, this one is pure gold. While some are clearly better (with some of the best skills in the game) there are no really bad skills, and the risk of getting something moderately useful like Combat Master or Disarm is outweighed with how good Rain of Blows and Step Aside is. Generally better for Escher than Cawdor though, since they have better initiative for Step Aside and WS 3+ Champions, but it is probably still a better skill group than Brawn for Cawdor.



Ferocity - "You wouldn't like me when I'm angry "(Oh, and welcome to the game Orlock)

Berserker - Extra Attacks are great. A better option than Bulging Biceps for your Renderizer Champion. More Attacks means more likely that you hit, and what you hit should stay down. Much better than Bull Rush. (Arguably you don't do the CC attacks as part of a charge action though, but as part of a free Fight Action, but Rules as Intended are clear)

Fearsome - The effectiveness of this one varies a lot depending on what gangs are in your turf war, and loses its potency over time. Surprisingly it's best against other Goliath gangs, who have terrible WP, but most other gangs will have a solid chance of passing on their Melee fighters. Still, they'll risk a 25-33% risk of just straight up losing the turn on their fighter, which could serve as a deterrent. If picked it should be combined with Berserker, to capitalize on your charge possibility.

Impetuous - This skill would be great if combined with Flurry of Blows, now... it's pretty eh. Still getting some free mobility is not the worst thing, and could work with Headbutt. Generally not a pick, but not the worst thing to roll.

Nerves of Steel - This reads: On a Cool check, get an additional Action if someone shot at you. Great all purpose skill, especially for Goliaths with their better Cool stat.

True Grit - This skill decreases the chance of an OOA or SI to 45% from 66% on a 1 Damage attack, which could easily save your bacon in a close combat. Probably not as good as Berserker or Nerves of Steel though, but a solid "tank" skill.

Unstoppable - Discard flesh wounds on 4+ or roll 2 dice on recovery checks on 4+. I'd say it is a solid skill, especially with something that decreases the amount of OOAs and SIs you get, like True Grit.


This is the better skill list for Goliath, with these skills Goliaths become human tanks, able to shrug off the psychological and physical effects of battle. Berserker is also a good offensive skill to make your beefcakes hit like the trucks they are in close combat.



Leadership - "This is the chain of command, it is the chain I beat you with until you follow my orders."

Commanding Presence - Activating another ganger can be good, but it isn't necessarily what you want to do all the time. Activating 2 extra fighters at once will often be enough, and I doubt you'll see a lot of actual use of that third one.

Inspirational - Lets you "reroll" a Cool check for fighters within 6". Not a great range, but can be a good option if your gang has bad cool scores.

Iron Will - An ok choice for a small gang to stay in the fight, but ask yourself, if the fight is going so badly that you have to make Bottle tests, are you sure you want to stay and fight? This skill choice is probably better spent on something that will actually have an effect on the fight before this point.

Mentor - XP progression is pretty slow, and this could be a nice way to alleviate that. However, the range is pretty short and the effect is not wholly reliable. Choose only if you know you're in for a long Turf War.

Overseer - This is the one. Being able to activate one of your more combat focused characters twice in one go can be awesome, especially if you combine it with Fast Shot or Rain of Blows and group activations. Unless you plan on turning your Leader into a frontline combat monster, this is probably the best skill they can get.

Regroup - Pass a Ld check to make all the Broken fighters within 6" rally. Again, this is a skill that only effects things when it is already going bad, and the range is short. Do note that it does combine decently with Mentor, as a Rallying fighter earns 1xp.


Overseer is up there among the best skills in the game, and thus gives this group a high status. The other skills are not as impactful and suffers from having a pretty short range IMO. Still, if you have taken Overseer for your Leader you might almost as well just continue going with Leadership skills and turn them into a buff-monster.


Next up! Cunning, Shooting and Savant
 
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Axelius

Ganger
Nov 28, 2017
105
147
48
Sweden
Cunning - Cunningly Brutal, Brutally Cunning (And here we have House Delaque)

Backstab - Again, a skill that gives a conditional +1S, now, Delaque who are the primary users of Cunning can unlike Goliath actually use a point of strength... but it's just cheaper to buy the strength which will always be used. I'd argue that this is also worse than Bull Rush, since you'll only really be able to pull of a backstab when you charge, but not all charges will be backstabs. Avoid.

Escape Artist - This cost 9xp to pick. Increasing your initiative by 1 cost 5xp and will cap out your initative on Delaque Juves and Champions. The escape bonus can be nice, but probably not worth a skill slot, since it is conditional on the character going OOA and being unlucky (either by the opponent rolling high on the capture attempt if few fighters were downed or this fighter being randomly drawn as the one captured). Avoid.

Evade - Always get partial cover against ranged attacks and full cover at long range. Pretty good skill, as not being hit is good. Interestingly, the skill means that it is actually better to be in the open than in partial cover, as the effect is the same at short range, but the skill is better at long. Not being hit equals not being pinned which means a free action (oh, and not dying is nice too, I guess). Solid pick.

Infiltrate - This skill has a lot of potential, a large part of the game is action economy and positioning, this skill lets you skip all that and just get to the position where you want your fighter immediately. Sniper fighters are the obvious users, who can find themselves a nice vantage point, but heavies work too, not having to move into position with their Heavy Stubbers. Melee fighters can use this well too, as they could be behind a corner 6" and still be in charge range turn 1. Do take care, as the fighter will be unsupported and even a sniper or a heavy in a superior position can lose if they go up against the entire enemy team. A secondary benefit is that the fighter is able to ignore many scenario restrictions, such as being in an open area at the start of an Ambush. There's also the psychological factor, as it will force your opponent to be more careful when deploying, as a stray fighter easily could be picked off by an infiltrator. All in all a great skill.

Lie Low - No. You can already not be targeted if the character is prone and in cover. If you're being fired at at long range and are not in cover while pinned, something has gone terribly wrong, and you should feel bad. Maybe (just maybe) you could take it on someone with Evade, who will regularly not be in cover at long range, as a secondary precaution, but avoid in general.

Overwatch - Now we're talking! Being able to interrupt someone's activation can be huge, especially when going up against melee-heavy teams like Goliaths. Remember that you only need to pin them to stop their charge or attack. Also remember that the attacks made as part of a charge is their own action, and can thus be intercepted in overwatch even if you did not have LoS at the beginning of the charge (and likely at short range this time). You'll effectively lose an action, but if you hit you can make your enemy lose two. It has further applications such as being able to attack a fighter while they are moving between cover, or previously mentioned charge stopper. Great skill.


3 good skills, 3 duds with some application. Rolling on this table is possible, but Delaques will want to cherry pick from the list. Overwatch and Infiltrate are some of the most versatile skills IMO and could make Delaques hell to play against (as they should be).


Shooting - This is my rifle, there are many like it, but this one is mine. (6 reasons to hate Van Saar, number 3 will surprise you!)

Fast Shot - We start of strong with one of the best skills in the game. I've been going on and on about action economy and this, right here, is exactly what I am talking about. Rain of Blows has a higher potential damage, but requires you to start the activation engaged. This one, this one you can use almost all the time to double the volume of fire you're putting out, add that to the good BS of Van Saars and easy access to Boltguns and Plasma Guns... Well, this skill alone is going to be reason enough to ban Van Saars, or at least "clone loadouts". Very good. Too good.

Gunfighter - Again, it is cheaper to just get +1BS, but since it removes a penalty it can still be useful once you already have 2+ BS. Split fire can be useful, but often you'll probably want to focus fire a valuable target. It's not a skill you'll want to pick before you have maxed your BS though and it is only worthless if you aren't going for two pistols. Not something you'll want to pick early and even less something you'll want to roll on a Juve or a Specialist.

Hip Shooting - Free shoot action at -1 when double moving. Yes please. Not as good as Fast Shot, obviously, but still a strong skill. Somewhat situational, but with it you don't need to choose between positioning and shooting. Or be able to snap off an incredibly long shot as your threat range increases by 5". It is also great on fighters that don't rely as much on accuracy, such as grenade launchers and flamers. If your group bans duplicate skills, this is a solid pick instead of Fast Shot for a Champ's first skill. Otherwise its only fault is that it isn't Fast Shot.

Marksman - Ignoring Cool checks is ok, but Van Saar Champs and Leaders already have good Cool scores and remember that you don't need to do a Cool check if the further target is easier to hit. The extra damage on a 6 can be nice, but with a Plasma Gun or a Krak grenade it is kinda moot, add to that that Boltguns probably "ought" to have 2 damage and... well, it is only useful on Autoguns or Lasguns, but such weapons are for grunts. A dud of a skill, compared to the others of the group.

Precision Shot - This is not worth it, if you want to avoid 5+ armour saves it is just easier to buy a Plasma Gun or us a Krak grenade. Just like Marksman a skill for the grunt, who doesn't have the skill anyway. Dud as well.

Trick Shot - Get a point of BS instead. If you're already at 2+ you got two better choices in the group. If you have 2+ BS and those two skills... Do you really need more ranged skills? Ok as a roll result, but not something you should ever pick.


One skill that is brokenly good, one skill that allows for good action economy, and a couple of duds. The duds are still useful though and it is worth the risk to get them if you have to roll on the table if you're not allowed to pick Fast Shot.


Savant - I'm not stupid, I'm just unlucky when I think

Ballistics Expert - Just get +1 BS. If you already have that, this means that you would have to have a penalty of -2 to hit before this has effect. Can also not be combined with the two best Shooting skills Fast Shot and Hip Shooting. Avoid.

Connected - The bad editing strikes again, references the wrong page and the wrong action name! Still a good skill for a leader, as it means that you can both Work the Gang's Turf for income and get to look for rare items. How doing the Look for Rare Items action twice works is not clear though, but I'd assume that it only means that you can buy two Rare items instead of one and does effect the availability roll. Not as good on Champions since they provide less Availability and absolutely worthless on Juves and Specialists, since they can't perform the action at all.

Fixer - An extra 20 cr (on average) every game is pretty nice, but the question is if it is worth the skill slot. Leaders, Champs and Specialists will want to get something that fulfills their role and Juves should focus on trying to become worthy of Champion status. Not sure about this one, to be honest. Still, you could do worse than to randomly roll this one.

Medicae - Just having a person help with a recovery test means that you have a 98% chance of not going OOA and a 55% chance of just getting a flesh wound. Rerolling OOA results are not necessary, and even in that case it would be better to get a medkit that allows you to roll an additional die. Unncessary.

Munitioneer - A solid support skill, lets you really blast away with your special weapons as long as you keep this guy around. A great skill to have on a support specialist or buff Leader. Yet another reason to hate Van Saar Plasma spam as well. Decent enough.

Savvy Trader - 20 credits off on any Rare Item and increasing the availability roll by 1 for the item bought with this action? You'll be able to outfit your entire crew with armoured undersuits, photolens goggles and plasma pistols in no time. A good thing to have together with Connected, to be able to buy two items, or be able to buy a discounted item and get the money from the turf. Could be a really good skill in the long campaign game. Again, Worthless on Specialists and Juves.


Savant is a bit of an odd duck, three skills that are campaign skills, two of which are only useable on Champions and Leaders. Of the three combat skills they vary wildly in what they do, and two of them are worse than buying an increased stat or a piece of wargear. Due to the high variance you should try to avoid rolling on this table, especially with a Juve or a Specialist.
 
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Trafalgar Law

Gang Hero
Mar 14, 2017
903
1,559
103
Chorley, Lancashire, UK
A fair review of the skills so far.

Couple of disagreements though:

Clamber allows you to climb up anywhere at normal speed. Not amazing but also not bad. I'd rate it much higher than 'Meh' on a 3D board (completely useless on Zone Mortalis though as you said).

Sprint allows a fighter to cover almost a 1/3 of a 4' board in one movement. Allows you to quickly flank your opponent and threaten an objective or re-position to support fighters that are in trouble. Situational, but potentially very useful, so in my opinion not a bad one to get.

So I actually think the Agility table is a pretty good one to roll on personally, even Dodge is of some use (a 6+ ward save is a 6+ ward save, better than nothing). We just need someone to rewrite Mighty Leap into something legible.
 

Axelius

Ganger
Nov 28, 2017
105
147
48
Sweden
A fair review of the skills so far.

Couple of disagreements though:

Clamber allows you to climb up anywhere at normal speed. Not amazing but also not bad. I'd rate it much higher than 'Meh' on a 3D board (completely useless on Zone Mortalis though as you said).

Sprint allows a fighter to cover almost a 1/3 of a 4' board in one movement. Allows you to quickly flank your opponent and threaten an objective or re-position to support fighters that are in trouble. Situational, but potentially very useful, so in my opinion not a bad one to get.

So I actually think the Agility table is a pretty good one to roll on personally, even Dodge is of some use (a 6+ ward save is a 6+ ward save, better than nothing). We just need someone to rewrite Mighty Leap into something legible.
Yeah, the Agility table isn't bad, it's just that I don't think it holds up against the others (Combat especially, which is the other Primary skill group for Eschers). I think Clamber is meh, because I just find Catfall to be better. If you have Catfall it is seldom that you'll ever need to climb down, as you'll easily make jumps when going down and has the added benefit of being safer when at those high positions. Yes, Clamber makes it easier to get into those high-location positions, but once you are there, Catfall is the better choice. Assuming that we have an "ideal" position of 5 staggered 1" wide platforms 6" apart, a model with Catfall and 5" move could move 30" vertically on a single move. Granted, this will seldom (almost never) happen, but the big advantage with Catfall is that you spend no movement for the vertical.

Yes, Sprint can be useful, but it's just that I think that other skills are more generally useful. It is a skill that requires you to already spend your entire turn doing nothing but moving, so you can move a bit more. Compare this to being able to ignore the main penalty of being pinned 2/3 of the time.


EDIT: And Dodge... Dodge is fine, it's just that it doesn't have as big of an effect as it seems to have.
 

Longinus

Ganger
May 27, 2015
53
61
18
Thank you, this was very helpful.

I am not sold on the Overseer though. Your leader is the model with the best stats, you need to forgo action of your best fighter to allow extra actions on a lesser fighter. Besides, I think it will be more satisfying to have your leader to smash skulls personally. Though I'm not disagreeing with your assessment that it is the best Leadership skill.
 

Axelius

Ganger
Nov 28, 2017
105
147
48
Sweden
Thank you, this was very helpful.

I am not sold on the Overseer though. Your leader is the model with the best stats, you need to forgo action of your best fighter to allow extra actions on a lesser fighter. Besides, I think it will be more satisfying to have your leader to smash skulls personally. Though I'm not disagreeing with your assessment that it is the best Leadership skill.
Of course, it is not something for everyone or every gang, but what Overseer offers is a lot of flexibility, and the ability to capitalise on skill synergies right out from the gate. Furthermore while your Leader is often better in combat (at least for Escher and Goliath, Legacy gangs still have 2 attacks on their leaders) they are also generally more valuable, and especially for close combat it might be an idea to not have them be on the absolute frontline. Overseer also offers an economical advantage, as you gain a "free" fighter with the loadout that you use. It's not this easy, as you're still paying for Leader of course, but there is a large degree of flexibility.

As an example, here's two Escher "gangs" consisting of a Leader and the champ.

Leader, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Rain of Blows
Champion, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Rain of Blows
Cost: 405

Leader, Shock Whip, Lasgun, Overseer
Champion, Power Sword, Plasma Pistol, Rain of Blows
Cost: 340

Let's say that we activate both models in a group activation, and they are facing a horde of faceless mooks 6" away. The first gang charges with both models, doing 7 Power Sword and 2 Plasma Pistol Attacks at WS 3+, none of them uses their skills.

The second gang has the Champion charge, and then have the Leader Overseer her. The Champion leaps in and does a total of 7 Power Sword and 3 Plasma Pistol Attacks, by using Rain of Blows.

The Second gang is cheaper, but ends up putting out more attacks. Additionally, it has the flexibility of being able to "jump" the Champion, by having her move 10" with a double move by being given an order, and then have her activate to charge someone, giving her a 16-18" threat range from her normal 6-8".

Now, by no means will this gang always be better, but the second gang has in my opinion a lot more versatility in their two characters, at a price that allows for an additional ganger with an autogun compared to the top.
 

JmOz01

Ganger
Nov 30, 2017
71
34
23
Parshall ND, USA
jawedel01.wixsite.com
If I understand overseer also consider gangs where the champ and the leader have different BS/WS (Cawdor & Van Sarr). A Cawdor leader may want to give up their attack to allow the champ to take two (with range) or the Van Saar leader may give up his so his champ can lay the melee smack down on someone
 

vorag

New Member
Mar 24, 2013
2
0
3
Your main source of income is via leaders and champions too, so you want to keep them safe. Overseer lets your leader contribute early game while hiding and being safe, letting them come out late game to mop up.
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
4,026
9,179
138
35
Sevres 92130 France
Other game but I've played Gideon Argus in Imperial Assault quite a lot recently and he has the game's equivalent of Overseer (half Overseer actually, you give up one of your two actions to give a friendly unit a free action). I use it at every occasion I have (and it costs resource to prevent you from using it every single turn).
Overseer gives you a lot of flexibility, and let you skimp on your leader's loadout. At the very worst, it will give you an additional shot with your best weapon on almost every turn (you may need to move your leader from time to time) and, as noted above, many (legacy) gangs have champions with as good if not better BS than the leader.
It won't win a game singlehandedly, of course, but it's definitely a very good skill.
 
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p0dde

Gang Champion
Mar 2, 2016
439
519
113
Copenhagen, Denmark
I agree that Agility seems like something you want to avoid. if you could use sprint to charge, it would be something very different.

Not sure about the whole, keep you leader back and use Overseer. Seems a bit boring, and the fact that it is a double action, means you do not get to do anything. Leaders have great stats and access to great equipment, I think you should use that. You make a good argument, but is's best case, and usually you shouldn't expect a game of Necromunda to not go as planed :confused:

This is base on zero N17 games play experience, soo yeah... But from my first read through Infiltration jump out as an extremely strong skill. Looking forward to hear the breakdown/analysis of that one.
 
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Axelius

Ganger
Nov 28, 2017
105
147
48
Sweden
If I understand overseer also consider gangs where the champ and the leader have different BS/WS (Cawdor & Van Sarr). A Cawdor leader may want to give up their attack to allow the champ to take two (with range) or the Van Saar leader may give up his so his champ can lay the melee smack down on someone
Actually, these cases are the ones where you might not want to get Overseer. For example, the Cawdor Leader is the only solid Close Combat fighter that Cawdor has, and likewise the Van Saar leader is the best Marksman on the bunch, so you want to reinforce those strengths. It's on gangs such as Escher, Orlock and Delaque where your gangers and champs can fulfill roughly the same roles that it has its best use. The advantage of the skill is the versatility it offers, but it does force the Leader into a secondary position. The Cawdor and Van Saar leaders are already specialists, with access to skills that capitalise on their speciality.

I agree that Agility seems like something you want to avoid. if you could use sprint to charge, it would be something very different.

Not sure about the whole, keep you leader back and use Overseer. Seems a bit boring, and the fact that it is a double action, means you do not get to do anything. Leaders have great stats and access to great equipment, I think you should use that. You make a good argument, but is's best case, and usually you shouldn't expect a game of Necromunda to not go as planed :confused:
Exactly, yes, what I described was a best case scenario, but if we compare my two example gangs, which will be better in a shootout? Well, the Overseer gang has superior range and weapon selection. Likewise, Overseer could instead of activating your melee champ be used to activate your Chem Thrower or some ranged ganger in a better position. It can be used as a positioning tool, giving a fighter two extra moves, or as an offensive tool. And if the Leader needs to get stuck in, well, she still has a Shock whip and three attacks...
 

p0dde

Gang Champion
Mar 2, 2016
439
519
113
Copenhagen, Denmark
Updated second post with Cunning, Shooting and Savant.
Good run through, I agree with your overall take on it. I really like the Savant skills: Fixer and Medicae. The skills that help you grow your gang in the long run (also Mentor: Leadership) seems most valuable. I think those are the skills that I will be looking to try out first.

I agree that the Shooting skills look to be the best skill group, with only Marksman being bad, and everything else making you a better shot. So when rolling for random skills for juves, Van Saar juves look to be coming out ahead.

I think naming the Overseer + Fast Shot combo as the strongest build, is good for the meta game, I don't agree that it necessarily is true (as mentioned earlier), but it becomes a good benchmark for other build to compare it self. Like an Orlock Build with multiple fixers, could grow wealthy quickly, and start hiring more gangers. Or the Delaque: Infiltration H2H build, that charges as the first action of the game, also seem very promising.
 

Trafalgar Law

Gang Hero
Mar 14, 2017
903
1,559
103
Chorley, Lancashire, UK
Another good review.

The biggest issue with a number of skills is that a straight stat increase is frequently better. I think this is a problem with the 'pay xp' pick an upgrade system. The more I think about it the more I would prefer a random table similar to the Ganger one.
 

p0dde

Gang Champion
Mar 2, 2016
439
519
113
Copenhagen, Denmark
Another good review.
The biggest issue with a number of skills is that a straight stat increase is frequently better. I think this is a problem with the 'pay xp' pick an upgrade system. The more I think about it the more I would prefer a random table similar to the Ganger one.
Yes, for me that is the million dollar question concerning N17 campaigns. How will this play out? Short term BS/WS seems like the safe bet. And W, T and M increases are also very attractive. But in the long run, skill combos will potentially have a higher value.
 

Fl33tf00t

Juve
Nov 18, 2017
48
73
18
Uk
Got to be honest a triple parry Escher with step aside is getting awfully hard to hit in close combat, re roll 3 of your hits, any of those that make it through I dodge the first one on a 2+
 

Axelius

Ganger
Nov 28, 2017
105
147
48
Sweden
Another good review.

The biggest issue with a number of skills is that a straight stat increase is frequently better. I think this is a problem with the 'pay xp' pick an upgrade system. The more I think about it the more I would prefer a random table similar to the Ganger one.
Yes, for me that is the million dollar question concerning N17 campaigns. How will this play out? Short term BS/WS seems like the safe bet. And W, T and M increases are also very attractive. But in the long run, skill combos will potentially have a higher value.
Yes, the big thing of this review is how it highlights the problems with the XP system. Now, I like randomness, but a randomness that can be controlled. However, if we compare this system with the one of Blood Bowl, in BB I roll my dice and see what I get to do with it, I can be lucky and choose +1S or a skill outside my normal groups, but even if I don't I still get to make a choice about which result I want to pick. Sometimes it is an obvious choice, but a choice nonetheless. In N17 I instead choose what I want to bet on, and then see if I win it or not.

It's not just that stat increases are the safe bet, it is also that they are often better than the skills that you might get, yet at a price that is cheaper than rolling on Secondary or picking a Primary (or in the case of WS/BS, the same as a random Primary). For combos and synergies to work though you need to reliably pick up the requisite skills, which means picking from the Primary list or being lucky.
 

p0dde

Gang Champion
Mar 2, 2016
439
519
113
Copenhagen, Denmark
It would be easy to quickly apply the new advancement categories to the old advancement table, and allow players to choose the advances within the subgroups, to make it fit the more lean advancement system of N17. It could look something like this: (this might already be done here on Yaktribe? )

2D6 Advancement table
2 Random skill form any skill set (Cost 50)
3 Random secondary skill (Cost 35)
4 Random primary skill (Cost 20)
5 Choose: Improve Wounds or Attack (Cost 45)
6 Choose: Improve Movement or Initiative (Cost 10)
7 Choose: Improve WS or BS (Cost 20)
8 Roll again
1-3 Choose: Improve Leadership or Cool (Cost 5)
4-6 Choose: improve Willpower or Intelligence (Cost 10)
9 Choose: Improve Strength or Toughness (Cost 30)
10 Random primary skill (Cost 20)
11 12 Pick any primary skill (Cost 20)

* On a roll of 2-3 or 11-12 any Specialist may choose to be promoted to Champion
 
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Axelius

Ganger
Nov 28, 2017
105
147
48
Sweden
It would be easy to quickly apply the new advancement categories to the old advancement table, and allow players to choose the advances within the subgroups, to make it fit the more lean advancement system of N17. It could look something like this: (this might already be done here on Yaktribe? )

2D6 Advancement table
2 Random skill form any skill set (Cost 50)
3 Random secondary skill (Cost 35)
4 Random primary skill (Cost 20)
5 Choose: Improve Wounds or Attack (Cost 45)
6 Choose: Improve Movement or Initiative (Cost 10)
7 Choose: Improve WS or BS (Cost 20)
8 Roll again
1-3 Choose: Improve Leadership or Cool (Cost 5)
4-6 Choose: improve Willpower or Intelligence (Cost 10)
9 Choose: Improve Strength or Toughness (Cost 30)
10 Random primary skill (Cost 20)
11 12 Pick any primary skill (Cost 20)

* On a roll of 2-3 or 11-12 any Specialist may choose to be promoted to Champion
Eh, that's way too random for my taste. Now instead of paying for a random thing within a group you just get something totally random and it's forcing bad options on players. You have an equal chance (10/36) of getting an advance in M, I, Wp, Ld, Int or Cl as getting a skill. A fighter should also always have the option to take a Primary Skill instead of a Secondary skill.