Mad Skillz - Review and discussion

[Thorgor]

Maybe all the stat increases could be replaced with a single advance option (6XP: roll on the ganger advancement table and apply the result (reroll if you can't increase a stat or get a becomes Specialist result)). That would make them less of a safe bet compared to skills.

 

[Axelius]

I'm thinking Blood Bowl style, you can always choose a Primary Skill or two mental stats (giving them a freebie, since they are generally the least attractive), on doubles you get to choose a secondary or a WS, BS, I or M increase, on 10+ you can choose an increase in S or T and on 12 you can pick any skill.

This would make Primary skills defining and worthwhile to pick even the subpar ones since you can't rely on getting a stat increase instead, BS and WS increases should be relatively common, while offering a choice when you get it. S and T are rare, but worthwhile to pick when you get it and once in a blue moon (or roughly every 36 advancements) you'll be able to pick any skill you want (or any stat you want for that matter).

EDIT: Oh, and you could keep the option to roll for a random Secondary on the "always".

 

[p0dde]

Or you could have a tier system, that keeps the xp cost system, but with an element of randomness?
Pay 6 Xp roll a D6: 1-3 increases one stat from selection: WS, BS, M, INI, COOL, LD, WILL, INT. 4-6 gain random primary skill
Pay 10 xp roll D6: 1-3 increases one stat from selection: S, T, W, A. 4-6: Pick one primary or gain a random secondary.
Pay 12 xp: Promote Specialist or gain random skill from any skill set.

 

[p0dde]

I'm thinking Blood Bowl style, you can always choose a Primary Skill or two mental stats (giving them a freebie, since they are generally the least attractive), on doubles you get to choose a secondary or a WS, BS, I or M increase, on 10+ you can choose an increase in S or T and on 12 you can pick any skill.

I like the bloodbowl system, and i think it fits what GW are trying to do with N17, except it seems like they intend the stats increases to have a high availability. Maybe the simplest solution to the problem that @Trafalgar Law mentioned, is to reduce the cost of random primary skill, to make it competitive? Or maybe to regulate stat increases, so you could not pick two (or three) stat increases in a row, but had to go for skill advances once in a while.

 

[Thorgor]

Doesn't the BB system lead to a lot of skill-clones though?

 

[Trafalgar Law]

Reducing the xp costs for a new skill could help make them more attractive, or make skills exempt from the +2 additional cost (although I think that will make skills too good over a long campaign).

For my Escher gang at the moment I need to make a decision on whether to take a skill before the next game or wait a game a take a toughness upgrade. A combat skill could be handy, but +1 Toughness will probably keep her alive longer and would work well with the skill I choose originally (spring up). The stat increase just seems better in general.

 

[Axelius]

Doesn't the BB system lead to a lot of skill-clones though?

Eeeeeh, I'd argue that it is just as much that there are a couple of *really* good skills as well as significant overlap that leads to this as the system. There's also the fact that if you would get a random skill, you'd have people firing their players, as they bring the Team Value up without adding significant effect on the field (which you can already see with teams such as Lizardmen, where skink players are regularly fired unless they roll a stat-up, as they hog the exp and increase TV). Now, BB has had a lively competitive scene for a long while and most teams are pretty well analysed by this point, meaning that it is easy to know which builds are "best", but still, if you manage to get that double or stat increase you often want it, as it means that you are able to get a new tool for your toolbox.

I'd say that the rules in N17 would lead to even more cloning, because it is safer and generally better to pick a Primary skill than get a random Secondary. You may want to roll on Primary, because it is relatively cheap, but for a mere 3xp surcharge you can make sure that you won't get Disarm and instead snag that Counter Attack to combine with Step Aside. With being limited to one or two Primary skill groups, each of which usually have 2 really good skills, the build options become very limited, such as a Van Saar gang with four Plasma Guns and two Fast Shot Champions. The BB system would give you the option to occasionally get this secure choice outside your normal groups. If you don't pick that sure secondary skill, you don't have to, but you don't know when you'll get the option to again.

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

With being limited to one or two Primary skill groups, each of which usually have 2 really good skills, the build options become very limited, such as a Van Saar gang with four Plasma Guns and two Fast Shot Champions.

Maybe it's a good thing that gangers can't get skills now... because they can use plasma guns, imagine a whole gang or plasma gunners with fast shot... *shudder

 

[Draco]

Agility drew the short straw here.

Other than spring up and Sprint, this table has nothing of note.

Spring up loses to Nerves of Steel if a gang has a high cool rating, and while Sprint/overseer stunts could allow for loot grabbing, infiltrator is better. Avoid the table.

Brawn as written is worse than agility. I think bulging biceps needs fixed, and while hurl can be cute, not much on offer.

Combat and Ferocity are fairly decent sets but I would favor avoiding hand to hand combat and the True Grit/Unstoppable/Nerves of steel type skills.

Cunning runs the table. Only Escape Artist and backstab are duds: The rest of these skills are all useable.

Evade is underrated... -2 to all opponent shooting at long range automatically? Regardless of terrain? Lie low is insurance.

Overwatch stops problem charges and tactics, especially if the shot wounds. Infiltrators are potentially game changing dangers.

Shooting = nice.
Fast shot is awesome, and the rest of the table makes sense once you have 2+ BS (Van Saar take notice)

Leadership and Savant tables are mostly about strategies in the long term.
I see Overseer as being breakable given group activation rules.

 

[p0dde]

So in light of all this, how do you all the the different gangs in terms of starting skills for leaders/champions for the different 6 houses?

I am playing my first game on saturday, with my cawdor gang, and picking skills is showing to be quite the challenge. I am set on trying out Mentor for the Leader, as I am curious to see if it is possible to make that work. For the Champions I do not know what to do. Cawdor Champions are WS +4 / BS +3, so good at shooting, but their primaries are Brawn and Combat ... hmm ... I could go for some H2H protection with Step Aside but i +4 is on the weak side. What would you do?

 

[Trafalgar Law]

With the exception of Van Saar I think it's ok. Everyone has some interesting actions and potential combos and there's plenty of choices.

Van Saar are a problem because they get to pick from the best skill table. I don't think anyone should have had shooting as a primary skill set.

 

[Axelius]

I agree with @p0dde, tried it myself and Cawdor is in a tight spot for their Champions, they got range focused champions that only have access to skills that are activated in melee and Bulging Biceps. Additionally, there's somewhat of an overlap between the two Primary skill lists with Headbutt and Rain of Blows (and to a lesser degree Hurl) having similar effects in the same circumstances. The only solution I can see is to house rule Heavy Stubber to Rapid Fire (2) and take Bulging Biceps. Otherwise Step Aside is probably still the best option (better than parry, except against Juves ). If it was possible to move into CC range without charging (and thus being open to Reaction attacks), I could see some kind of build using a Shotgun or Plasma Pistol at close range, and then moving in for an Assist.

Or just accept that your Champions will start behind the power curve of everyone else, pick melee skills and spend your first exp to raise their WS to 3.

It also seems weird that Brawn is one of the Cawdor primaries, and not Ferocity. At least then they would have access to Nerves of Steel.

 

[p0dde]

It also seems weird that Brawn is one of the Cawdor primaries, and not Ferocity. At least then they would have access to Nerves of Steel.

I was thinking the exact same thing. but i guess it makes sense flavor-wise, if you think of the Leaders and Champions as the calm priest'y types and the gangers and juves as berserking zealots.

I didn't plan on getting heavy stubbers, but it seems i'd might have to rethink that. I had my eye on 3 x Grenade launchers

 

[Axelius]

I was thinking the exact same thing. but i guess it makes sense flavor-wise, if you think of the Leaders and Champions as the calm priest'y types and the gangers and juves as berserking zealots.

I didn't plan on getting heavy stubbers, but it seems i'd might have to rethink that. I had my eye on 3 x Grenade launchers

Hey, I'm not even sure it's a good plan! But it is the only direct use of a skill that I can think of ^^. Still, I can see a horde of crazy fanatics with clubs, torches and stub guns lead by the firebrand Leader, backed up by two hulking Champions, laying down covering fire with the Heavy Stubbers.

 

[Draco]

I do think that the Van Saar legacy gangs have it best because of shooting being a powerful table.
The problem is that the weaponry and trading post tables need serious balancing.

Rules for player created combination weapons need to happen asap as well.

 

[Axelius]

I do think that the Van Saar legacy gangs have it best because of shooting being a powerful table.
The problem is that the weaponry and trading post tables need serious balancing.

Rules for player created combination weapons need to happen asap as well.

I'm actually coming to the opinion that Delaque is better. Cunning is a very strong skill list, and thanks to their Champions and Specialists having access to Shooting as a primary as well, they can be about as good as van Saar in a shooting game. That Rapid Fire Plasma gunner gets a lot scarier when they can pick Infilitrate as their first Advance and then pick up Overwatch.

 

[Reggi]

Spring up loses to Nerves of Steel if a gang has a high cool rating, and while Sprint/overseer stunts could allow for loot grabbing, infiltrator is better. Avoid the table.

Ofc, it depend if our fighter have better Cool or Initiative stats, but other than that i would say Spring Up is better then Nerves of Steel. With Nerves of Steel you make test when you get hit, so enemy know if you are pinned or not and can shoot you again if he really want to. Another thing is fighter who is pinned and in cover cant be shoot. So, if your fighter with Spring Up is pinned, he become pretty save against shooting in many cases, when Nerves of Steel dont give us a chance to be save from shoots and still dont lose activation to stand up.

 

[Tyr13]

Spring up also nicely combos with dive, which NoS doesnt.

 

[Axelius]

Spring up also nicely combos with dive, which NoS doesnt.

Funnily, Dive only exists in Underhive, not in Gang War, vut I thought of that as well.

 

[Jacob Dryearth]

Man, I was so disappointed to see dive not in Gang war. It's stupidly good for me Delaque!