N18 Making juves fun

Benoksen

Ganger
Mar 15, 2016
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Oslo
While the rule compilation has worked wonders to rule consistency and fixed a lot of the issues with core mechanics in N17, campaign play still leaves a lot to be desired. Or, the Dominion Campaign comes with some good elements, but how things should actually run is simply put in the hands of "the arbitrator".

Some of the things I struggle with may be matters of taste, like the slow XP progression. The game as it now is presented is based around short term campaigns. Leaders and champions come with well developed statlines, and as advancemets are chosen, it's not straight forwards to just introduce more XP if that is wanted.
Then we have juves and their role in a gang. This is a matter where the rules certainly are not in sync with explicit intentions from the designers. Juves and champions are meant to be developing main characters in a gang. Gangers are the supposed disposables. But juves that actually get five upgrades and level up to champions does this as third tier fighters, propably bogged down with injury, bloated in cost and with crap for stats. Now, where is the fun in such a "development"?

So, does anyone have inputs on how to improve things, or already have some good houseruling?
Below I'll post a scketch over what I'm planning to introduce locally. My goal is to speed up juve development, and make them into essential gangmenbers not just fodders.
 
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(Content may be edited)

JUVE DEVELOPMENT:
-In addition to XP as described, juves get 1XP per wounding hit they inflict upon an enemy. Max as many wounds the enemy actually loses. I.e. a juve that makes three hits with a autogun on another juve (Wound 1) can only get one XP from th attack.
If slower development is wanted this bonus XP can involve a Dr roll of, say, 4+.

JUVE INJURIES
When advancing a stat with lasting injury, the injury is simply removed and the advancement is not counted.

JUVE LEVEL UP
Juves get champion status upon reaching 7 (or 8) advancements. By this developed champions will have the possibility to match or surpass recruited champions in essential stats, and also be more personalized, even though the overall stats will be weaker.
 
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I totally agree that juves rules are underwhelming. They should have something better than simply no agvance exp tax.

One of the easiest solution is to double experience gain (and i would personally limit the doubling exp to total exp (like 20 exp etc) rather than advance count) (or halved advance cost either way around)

Overall they should advance quicklier.
 
I totally agree that juves rules are underwhelming. They should have something better than simply no agvance exp tax.

One of the easiest solution is to double experience gain (and i would personally limit the doubling exp to total exp (like 20 exp etc) rather than advance count) (or halved advance cost either way around)

Overall they should advance quicklier.

It's what the mentor skill does, I think the hard part is making sure they are within 6". It does mean your leaders shield can advance faster though.
 
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It's what the mentor skill does, I think the hard part is making sure they are within 6". It does mean your leaders shield can advance faster though.

Well, Mentor requires a leadership test. I actually have tried to base my Goliaths battle strategy around my leader's mentor skill. This to very variable success, I'd say. I have gotten a few extra XP, but more than that my herdlike lineup has been shot to pieces, gazzed in numbers and so on.
 
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Well why use mentor on inferior choice where use it on champs / gangers?
Additionally mentor needs exp trigger in order to trigger mentor thus basicly either juve rallies/makes out of action/does some scene things. And no bonus for survival.

Naturally one good use for juves is to attemp long coup degraces with extra mobility.

My personal issue with them is that in original munda juves were the most interesting ones as they grew something really unique, sometimes great sometimes not so great.

New rules dont really make them interesting
 
Well, Mentor requires a leadership test. I actually have tried to base my Goliaths battle strategy around my leader's mentor skill. This to very variable success, I'd say. I have gotten a few extra XP, but more than that my herdlike lineup has been shot to pieces, gazzed in numbers and so on.

I tend to just use juves for shields and coup de grace "clearing the field", remember that champions and leaders offer 2xp when you take them out as well. That's a possible 3xp from one coup de grace if near a mentor who passes leadership. Not reliable by any stretch but still could be a boost over multiple games when the opportunity arises.
I never see juves as effective fighters, they are there for speed to move boxes, assist the more competent fighters and take bullets.

They do advance slowly and I don't think you could advance them easily from a single campaign unless you ran it a long time. Maybe they are designed to move from gang to gang as you go through campaigns rehiring them until they peak?
 
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My personal opinion, absence of official juve models is decision and because of that they made rules that are unappealing.

If they had intent for example make forge world juves etc. They would write rules differently
 
My personal issue with them is that in original munda juves were the most interesting ones as they grew something really unique, sometimes great sometimes not so great.
Perhaps that is also due to the random advancement from the original game making all fighters unique. You never knew what you would get or how you would grow them until they had a couple of random advances. The ability to choose means you will only ever try to "optimise" them.
 
yep. and overall (i haven't played enough games to say for sure in new munda) but overall perhaps roughly same ammount of games is needed to have "equalish" effect on the juves. Old munda had possibilities to give bad attributes or skills that werent that usefull, but in average it takes roughly same time to get usefull juve. off course it could have been that you managed to roll really well on the first level ups in old munda.

but compared to gangers / heavies / leaders in old munda juves were interesting because they gained the first couple level ups swiftly. with good game even two levels a game. I liked that, then they started to even out with gangers. Here due the way exp generates (which is imo too slow overall) for juves it is even slower in general (well unless using coup de gracing effectively.

For the experience "problem" and lack of proper underdog bonus, I though about making a houserule in our current campaign that if fighter is taken out of action and survives it would yield extra exp. This would give slightly increase experience gain, fluffwise it is good argue that scars can teach lesson and it would serve kind of "underdoggish" "loser bonus".
 
I'm quite tempted to try the double XP idea mentioned above in our next campaign. It's a simple fix that seems like it might even out the rate of advancement versus injuries. I think for now I'll have the Mentor bonus apply after the doubling just to stay on the safe side.
 
Maybe the issue isn't juves but slow exp generation and no real underdog bonus as you stated. One thing I'm noticing from our current campaign is that income generation and getting a good territory for it takes a gang further ahead. Short of a death to a key gang member it is difficult for an underdog to compete even with a full deck of random strategy cards in their hand as compensation.

Maybe concentrating on the soft skills for a juve such as movement and cool are the way to go? They require less xp and rallying will grant xp if they break. Perhaps in an update they will add in xp for cracking terminals with Intelligence or resisting a wyrd's attacks with Willpower? Does Willpower even have a use?
 
Good catch. I think I meant charging a model with the Fearsome skill, unless they've changed that in the new books.
That is still willpower.

What skills do people aim for with their juves? I can see uses for Backstab, Infiltrate, Sprint, Bull Charge, Berserker, Gunfighter and Medicae depending on your gang type. Saving up for a skill could be a way to make a juve more fun.
I think leveraging a juve's movement as a medic is a possible use although it may not gain much xp. Give them a medicae kit and the Medicae skill for a 3 dice roll, reroll out of action and pick your poison on recovery tests they aid?
 
Maybe the issue isn't juves but slow exp generation and no real underdog bonus as you stated. One thing I'm noticing from our current campaign is that income generation and getting a good territory for it takes a gang further ahead. Short of a death to a key gang member it is difficult for an underdog to compete even with a full deck of random strategy cards in their hand as compensation.

Maybe concentrating on the soft skills for a juve such as movement and cool are the way to go? They require less xp and rallying will grant xp if they break. Perhaps in an update they will add in xp for cracking terminals with Intelligence or resisting a wyrd's attacks with Willpower? Does Willpower even have a use?

N18 gameplay is great, and New-Munda comes with a lot of new colourful content, For one, the new territories are nicely fleshed out and is a much richer starting point than the old territory table that basically gave a gang die sixes of income (except fom tunnels and and a couple of other territories that came with valuble in-game effects). However, there are so many things with campaign play that have moved backwards, so I hardly know where to begin. Or, well, I guss I decided to start with juve advancements...
Domain campaign mechanics? They hardly exist! A couple of paragraphs and then "have the arbitrator fix things".
Van Saar champions starting with BS at max and getting suspensors and all kinds of fantastic weapons tossed at them! Where's the fun in a game with gang development to start fully developed?
My main underlying conecern is that N18 certainly should work for established gaming groups, but there are many obstacles to cross when trying to introduce the game to new players. Instead of giving sound base campaign mechanics, GW comes with a time schedule the campaign should follow...
 
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N18 gameplay is great, and New-Munda comes with a lot of new colourful content, For one, the new territories are nicely fleshed out and is a much richer starting point than the old territory table that basically gave a gang die sixes of income, except fom tunnels and and a couple of other territories that came with valuble in-game effects. However, there are so many things with campaign play that have moved backwards, so I hardly know where to begin. Or, well, I guss I decided to start with juve advancemnts...
Domain campaign mechanics? They hardly exist! A couple of paragraphs and then "have the arbitrator fix things".
Van Saar champions starting with BS at max and getting suspensors and all kinds of fantastic weapons tossed at them! Where's the fun in a game with gang development to start fully developed?
My main underlying conecern is that N18 certainly should work for established gaming groups, but there are many obstacles to cross when trying to introduce the game to new players. Instead of giving sound base campaign mechanics, GW comes with a time schedule the campaign should follow...
I think the issue is they have tried to add too many of the fun flavourful extras too quickly. If we look at the original 'Munda it didn't get interesting until the outlanders supplement. So its only taken a year or more to get all the original gangs out but we also have rules for wyrds (only one bounty hunter though?), hangers on (not in either original game) extra guns, flavourful house lists, exotic weapons, fun silly items like gold guns, pets.. It's trying to roll out supplement material before the game is complete.

It's frustrating at times but you work through, as a game primarily done by forgeworld "specialist games" I'm not entirely sure its aimed at "new" players as that's more the age or sigmar, easy build 40k side of things. New players to necromunda will have some game/roleplaying experience I imagine and be able to work around the time schedule. There is no way my group could with jobs, kids, lives so we have adapted it. I actually think its designed as an open tool set for campaigns anyway. Instead of week 1 we have changed it to "everyone gets 5 challenges" its still a cycle, if it takes 3 weeks does it matter?

The only glaring issue I have found in a campaign (so far) is Escher half-price items if they control a Synth-Still. Do you record them at half price artificially lowering your gang rating or do you record them at full price giving you an infinite money engine? Other than that its been fun and seems to be working well, xp generation could be faster and could be fixed with special xp gained in future scenarios for special actions (possibly).

...My personal opinion is that Van Saar were always the easy button, even in the last edition but like any game is that also part of the balance? New players should play a gang like Van Saar, Cawdor for an advanced player.

I think juve advancements are the bottom of a pile of possible issues, maybe once an outlanders style supplement is out it will tidy things up, we can only hope!