May's White Dwarf

cronevald

Gang Champion
Jun 5, 2016
328
514
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Missoula, MT
https://www.warhammer-community.com/2019/04/22/white-dwarf-preview-may/

Scroll down to the bottom, an article for running perpetual campaigns?

I have to wonder if this is going to be a short blip with some general advice and lots more suggestions about tea drinking, or an actual article with some meat. I don't usually get WD these days but I'll be happy to pick it up if it's the latter.
 

cronevald

Gang Champion
Jun 5, 2016
328
514
98
Missoula, MT
Yeah, I sound a bit negative up there but I am looking forward to this. The description as an arbitrator tool has me hopeful that it's more than just a puff piece.
 

cardyfreak

Executive Officer in charge of Radishes
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I think the easiest way to make the campaigns persistent is to introduce a gang upkeep tax on incomes. You almost immediately make the high powered expensive weapons more difficult to obtain, which pretty much solves the main reason ‘regular’ campaigns have to end so quickly- when your gang ends up like a paramilitary force of plasma gun wielding PDF’s haha!
Hopefully it’s interesting whatever it is.
 

Merzbau

Ganger
Nov 9, 2018
228
308
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Philadelphia
I can’t upload the images right now but check the r/Necromunda subreddit for scans.

The basic new additions boil down to a House Patronage system to replace random card draws for mismatched games- giving the underdog 100 credits for every full 100 credits difference to spend on a menu of options, ranging from random cards (100 credits) to chosen cards (200) to temporary hires of Gangers, Juves, Hired Guns and the like (sticker price, including equipment that they take with them). Any money not spent is lost and any hirelings on my stick around for one battle. They suggest restricting this system to bigger point disparities (400 credits or more).

Also introduced are Blaze of Glory missions for retiring gangs, with the first one having the powerful attacker seeking to hijack a shuttle to get the f*** off this garbage planet (if they can make it through the Eye without being blown out of the sky) and as many other gangs that want one last chance to settle scores trying to stop them.

It needs testing, of course, but it’s surprisingly well thought through for N18 content and continues to promise new campaign types in new settings in the future.
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
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There are some commendable ideas in there, but I wouldn't say it's that well thought through. The pricing of house patronage benefits is disappointing, though mostly because it underlines already existing issues.
And they managed to state within 3 sentences that patronaged juves are and are not subject to normal gang composition (which I think is a new record).

A random Tactics card costs 100c while a chosen Tactics card costs 200c. Tactics cards vary wildly in power and most of them are not that good (even discounting those that may do literally nothing for you, one of them just gives you a stub gun, which is hardly worth 100c even though you can give it to any fighter at any time), while a few are broken. Assuming you use the rules as written for your Tactics card deck (ie, use everything you own), there is really no reason to ever take the random option unless you have [100-199]c left and you can't physically hire any more fighter because you lack the corresponding minis. Add some kind of deck-building rules to the game and this may become viable though.

Speaking of hired fighters, the fact that both temporary gangers/juves and hired guns can be patronaged at their normal listed cost just serves to show that hired guns are grossly overpriced when normally recruited (I mean, if a temporary hired gun is priced the same as a temporary fighter, then surely a temporary hired gun shouldn't be priced the same as a permanent fighter — even with the added We'll Get our Bit rule)

On the plus side, limiting temporary fighters to gangers and juves, and adding some kind of loner rule to them is I think exactly the right way to do it.
And, to be honest, any kind of inducement system is better than nothing (and better imo than showering the losing underdog with XP or Reputation)
 

almic85

Gang Hero
Oct 30, 2014
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I actually think it would be better to give the underdog something that makes them better in the long term instead of just better for that one game.

There’s nothing wrong with having an inducement system (and it works well in bloodbowl) but I think it is more suited to a league type game like real life sports comps.

In a perpetual campaign format where you are really just trying to build your gang and the narrative around them the need to even up each individual game is worth less than the need for weaker gangs to catch up.

The thing that is really missing from the perpetual rules is a soft cap mechanism on gang rating to slow down or stop gangs from growing exponentially.

The gang number limit based on gang rating for custom crew selection scenarios is an attempt at this, but all it really does is reinforces the strength of gangs with high gang ratings by allowing them to bring more troops.
 
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Merzbau

Ganger
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I think the smart money for underdogs is taking one or more House subplots to turn into XP or cash, making for kind of a risk-reward calculation- how many new objectives vs how many hirelings to help you actually pull them off? The subplots seem especially useful in missions where the underdog is a defender and even additional bodies aren’t likely to change the outcome.

Good catch with the Juves thing; that’s record-setting sloppiness even for N17/18. At least in this case intent seems clear-cut, with the section breaking down how a gang could hire a third Ambot (!) as an example.
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
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There’s nothing wrong with having an inducement system (and it works well in bloodbowl) but I think it is more suited to a league type game like real life sports comps.
I like inducements system because it means each and every game is 'winnable'. The topdog still has an edge because their dudes don't have the 'loner' rule added to them, but both crews are technically the same point value so, provided things are correctly priced and the scenario played is balanced, the underdog should always have a good fighting chance.
I really dislike the idea of an underdog sitting for a game they have virtually no chance of winning and folding asap so that they can get the free XP. But I understand if some players care more about the evolution of their gang in the long run than having each individual battle be balanced.
I'm not opposed to some kind of "giant killer" reward if a player wants to take a risk and still manages to win against the odds though, which is apparently something the house sub-plots would allow for? I need to study those in more detail.

The thing that is really missing from the perpetual rules is a soft cap mechanism on gang rating to slow down or stop gangs from growing exponentially.
Yes, the campaign system certainly still lacks some kind of diminishing returns mechanism to ensure a gang cannot simply snowball to victory. Which is strange because IIRC all the GW campaign systems of old (Oldmunda, Mordheim and BB at the very least) had something like that.
Ideally, you do want the rich to still get richer, but not linearly (or, worse, exponentially, as was the case in Turf War).
 

almic85

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Good catch with the Juves thing; that’s record-setting sloppiness even for N17/18. At least in this case intent seems clear-cut, with the section breaking down how a gang could hire a third Ambot (!) as an example.
I don’t think the intent is that clear.

All of the other types of fighters are only temporarily added to the gang, which is why they can exceed the gang creation rules for that game.

The Juves are a permanent addition to the gang which is why they need to comply with the rule.

I think it’s a case of them forgetting the Juves are permanent additions who need to keep their weapons, while the rules currently say the Juve stays but had to give up all of his weapons and war gear after the fight.
 
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Merzbau

Ganger
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I don’t think the intent is that clear.

All of the other types of fighters are only temporarily added to the gang, which is why they can exceed the gang creation rules for that game.

The Juves are a permanent addition to the gang which is why they need to comply with the rule.

I think it’s a case of them forgetting the Juves are permanent additions who need to keep their weapons, while the rules currently say the Juve stays but had to give up all of his weapons and war gear after the fight.
Ah, god, what a mess. I didn’t even see that might be an interpretation- it says “recruit one or more Juves,” “temporarily hire a Ganger,” but just “hire” Dramatis Personae/Bounty Hunter/Hive Scum (presumably because their employment is already temporary and it explains elsewhere that they don’t stick around from “We’ll Get Our Bit”).

I still think Juves are temporary hires on this chart and the word “temporary” was just left off their line of the chart for space reasons- the following paragraph says “any fighters hired as a House Patronage benefit,” etc. Though again, they made the brilliant and not at all ambiguous choice to use the word “recruit” instead of “hire,” just like how the lack of clear distinction between “round” and “turn” and their free usage of both terms has led to some utterly insane rules interpretations on the Necromunda subreddit lately (Effigy of the Damned only takes effect on the following fighter activation! A Genestealer Familiar’s save can be used once IN EVERY SINGLE ACTIVATION! Fluoride is mind control! Paul is dead!).

The conflicting asterisked line under the chart is still extremely bad proofreading, but the following paragraph noting that Juves “hired as a House Patronage benefit” (the exact same language used for the collective term “fighters”) don’t have to follow gang composition rules makes more sense if they’re not permanent additions to the gang, because what happens then? Do they *always* not count as a Juve for calculating gang balance?

Also, it just hit me but anyone getting the benefit of 200 or more credits who doesn’t immediately use a small chunk of that to hire an Ammo-Jack as a dirt-cheap 3+ bolter is a sucker.
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
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The Juves are a permanent addition to the gang which is why they need to comply with the rule.
I don't think they are permanent. Even though it just says "recruit one or more Juves" in the table, the very first sentence after the table states that "Any fighter hired as House Patronage are not added to the gang roster, as their services are secured for one battle only". This should include Juves.

Also, it just hit me but anyone getting the benefit of 200 or more credits who doesn’t immediately use a small chunk of that to hire an Ammo-Jack as a dirt-cheap 3+ bolter is a sucker.
Excellent point! And since there is no limit on how many temporary Hangers-on you can get as Patronage (and they are automatically added to the crew), you should definitely spend all your patronage credits to recruit an army of them.
Also, it begs a new question: if your gang has 4 Ammo jacks, can you reroll failed Ammo checks that rolled a natural 4?
 
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Spenetrator

Ganger
Apr 2, 2018
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Pros:
I really ike the bloodbowl style inducements - I think it makes sense 'in universe' - But I wouldn't object to houseruling another one along the lines of a 100 cred gain D6 extra XP split as evenly as possible between eligible crew members. (This may have already been included, as I haven't got a copy in front of me)

Cons:
Suggested hard limit on bodies - Why is it neccessary to have a limit at lower ratings?
that seems to hurt Cawdor who thematically are all about waves of terribly equipped goons...
You should be able to choose whether you want boys or toys!

Eugh. it just needed a spiralling costs table applied to income based on Gang rating...
(and to do away with the cycles - IMHO they are such a stupid, arbitrary element but YMMV)
 
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Ardavion

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For me, although I've not been able to see May's WD yet, none of this sounds like it will tempt me back to N17/18.

Contradictory statements in the article aside, the Blood Bowl mechanics that were already in the N17 were a turn off for me and didn't help correlate my understanding of Necromunda to the new version; having more BB mechanics doesn't make me think it'll make the game better.

BB is already a polarising game to me (your league performance is heavily based on the team you pick, for example, and the inducements for my heavily battered Skaven team never made any significant difference when I played), so making N18 more like it makes me feel like the new rules won't really balance anything to allow things to work (hard limit on gangers etc).

A lot of people are commenting, essentially, "why can't we have the old income chart". If we're still asking for things from the ORB/LRB/NCE Necromunda rules...

I'll buy a copy of this month's WD, firstly to have a look whatever the mechanics are, secondly to hopefully send a message to GW to keep up providing rules and hobby articles in WD for Specialist Games, thirdly there might be a few articles that pique my interest, but I'm probably a "once and done" reader for this month rather than going back to it for anything substantial.
 
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almic85

Gang Hero
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I don't think they are permanent. Even though it just says "recruit one or more Juves" in the table, the very first sentence after the table states that "Any fighter hired as House Patronage are not added to the gang roster, as their services are secured for one battle only". This should include Juves.


Excellent point! And since there is no limit on how many temporary Hangers-on you can get as Patronage (and they are automatically added to the crew), you should definitely spend all your patronage credits to recruit an army of them.
Also, it begs a new question: if your gang has 4 Ammo jacks, can you reroll failed Ammo checks that rolled a natural 4?
I’m just sitting at home rereading the article and I think you are definitely wrong on the juves being a temporary hire rather than a permanent recruitment.

My reasons for this are as follows.
1/ juves are the only fighters listed that use the term recruit instead of hire. Even gangers are listed as “temporarily hire a ganger”. Surely the only case of using the term recruit is not just an accident.

2/ the * in the list is only in the Juves listing and specifically says that that one item follows standard gang composition rules. Why would they specifically call this out in the table unless they are treated differently to every other fighter type that is a temporary hire.

3/ the quote you have above “any fighters hired as a House Patronage benefit are not added to the gang roster” uses the term hire, as does the following paragraph.

Now I do note that that same paragraph says “any juves hired as a House Patronage benefit are not subject to normal gang composition restrictions” however I would like to offer an alternative theory on this line.

That is the writers intended for juves to be able to be both taken as permanent additions in which case they must follow gang composition rules AND that they can be hired temporarily in which case they don’t follow gang composition rules.

I mean outside of getting juves through settlements this is the only other reason you would ever take them. I certainly wouldn’t hire on temporarily.
 

Paupoi

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I’m just sitting at home rereading the article and I think you are definitely wrong on the juves being a temporary hire rather than a permanent recruitment.

My reasons for this are as follows.
1/ juves are the only fighters listed that use the term recruit instead of hire. Even gangers are listed as “temporarily hire a ganger”. Surely the only case of using the term recruit is not just an accident.

2/ the * in the list is only in the Juves listing and specifically says that that one item follows standard gang composition rules. Why would they specifically call this out in the table unless they are treated differently to every other fighter type that is a temporary hire.

3/ the quote you have above “any fighters hired as a House Patronage benefit are not added to the gang roster” uses the term hire, as does the following paragraph.

Now I do note that that same paragraph says “any juves hired as a House Patronage benefit are not subject to normal gang composition restrictions” however I would like to offer an alternative theory on this line.

That is the writers intended for juves to be able to be both taken as permanent additions in which case they must follow gang composition rules AND that they can be hired temporarily in which case they don’t follow gang composition rules.

I mean outside of getting juves through settlements this is the only other reason you would ever take them. I certainly wouldn’t hire on temporarily.
Ok here's what I think.

1) They used recruit cause they are really bad at using the same verbs when making rules, we have seen them do it before. Yes it is an accident, cause them dumb.
2) The follows standard gang composition rules refers to the rule about what weapons and armor they can carry I guess. Two lines after that it talks about not following normal gang composition restrictions which I believe refers to the "no more than half your gang can be the sum of Leader, Champions and Juves, so you can hire 15 juves for a game if you got the credits for it.
3) Keep on reading, it clearly says "Any Juves hired as a House Patronage benefit are not subject to normal gang composition restrictions" so there you go, they say hire when talking about juves.

Yes rules are poorly written, no they do not intend you to get free juves that ignore the half the gang restrictions for keepsies.


"any fighters hired as a house patronage benefit are not added to the gang roster, as their services are secured for one battle only" We have gone thru this with the N17/18 rules, fighter refers to Leader, Champion, Ganger, Juve and hired guns etc.
 
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