May's White Dwarf

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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I think you are giving the writers too much credit @almic85
"Recruit" and "hire" are used interchangeably throughout the rulebook. They don't have established separate meanings in N18.
If we assume they do have separate meanings in this specific article, then the sentence about "hired" juves makes non sense whatsoever, since there is no way to "hire" a juve.

@Paupoi: equipment restrictions are not "composition" restrictions. And why would they only apply to juves? Does it mean patronaged gangers can get heavy weapons?

The one thing I can say for sure is that the rules, as written, are non-sensical. It's like there were two writers, one intended juves to be "recruited" as a permanent addition to the gang, and the other to be "hired" temporarily, and some kind of horrible hybrid of the two made it to print.
Since recruiting permanent fighters goes against the very concept of inducement (ie some kind of temporary bonus given to the underdog to even the score for this specific game), I have to assume patronaged juves are meant to be temporary addition to the gang like everything else in the table. And yes, that's an option you will seldom use. Why would you when you can have an army of boltgun-wielding BS3+ ammo-jacks for 50 credits a piece?
 
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almic85

Gang Hero
Oct 30, 2014
859
1,351
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Palmerston, ACT, Australia
@Thorgor I think you are probably right that this is the case of two writers creating one incoherent document, rather than one writer being inconsistent.

I actually do think the person that wrote the table deliberately used different words and did intend for juves to be permanent additions, while the person writing the article didn't.

I don't think the writer of the table would have bothered to say "Hire a temprorary hanger on", "temporarily hire a ganger" and "recruit a juve" and included the * unless they were meant to be different.

All the other instances of the term hire in the table relate to dramatis personae, bounty hunters and hive scum who are all temporary by their very nature.

The person who wrote the article itself on the other hand clearly intended for all of the things on the table to be one off benefits rather than anything that may balance the gangs in the longer term of the campaign.

As for using unlimited ammo jacks to add 50 credit BS3 boltguns to the gang for one fight the issue with that is that hanger-ons still use the normal rules for if they turn up so you may not end up with any of them actually turning up to fight unless you are defending in a scenario with home turf advantage.

with the proposed minimum 400 credits difference though and the ability to ignore gang compositon rules (if that is correct) you would be able to take a shedload of unarmed juves and just swamp the enemy. At 25 credits each goliaths would be able to take 16 extra juves. Even if they just take 16 bullets as they move forward to engage the enemy it will mean a few failed ammo checks and most likely a large number of fighters in combat.
 

KuStrife

Juve
Jun 4, 2018
27
48
13
Granada, España
Whoever perpetrated these rules probably changed his mind on the go but didn't correct it properly. Seems to be a common issue in these GW subproducts (Blackstone Fortress item management comes to mind, where players can share objects at any time but that leads to strange dynamics when sharing resources and buying)
However, there's no use on understanding thai, as Juves (and Champions) will be obsolete as soon as Prospects and Champions Specialists (or whatever they were called) arrive along new supplements with more bad-written rules...
 

Thorgor

Of The YAQ
Oct 12, 2015
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Issy-les-Moulineaux 92130 France
As for using unlimited ammo jacks to add 50 credit BS3 boltguns to the gang for one fight the issue with that is that hanger-ons still use the normal rules for if they turn up so you may not end up with any of them actually turning up to fight unless you are defending in a scenario with home turf advantage.
Sadly, no:
"Any fighter, including hired guns and Hangers-on, hired as a House Patronage benefit are automatically added to a players crew regardless of the crew selection method"
That has probably been written with Brutes in mind, but it's pretty clear that all hanger-ons will be part of the fight.
 
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Merzbau

Ganger
Nov 9, 2018
248
336
68
Philadelphia
Sadly, no:
"Any fighter, including hired guns and Hangers-on, hired as a House Patronage benefit are automatically added to a players crew regardless of the crew selection method"
That has probably been written with Brutes in mind, but it's pretty clear that all hanger-ons will be part of the fight.
Yeah. That’s clearly something any sensible Arbitrator or group will immediately house rule away but it’s be nice if GW/FW’s Rules writers spotted the kind of stuff that is glaringly, immediately obvious to those of us who play the game.
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
Dec 29, 2017
2,045
1,719
138
Kristiansand
I am a little confused on the text written for refreshing territories:

"Only new gangs are counted for the purpose of generating territories during steps 1 and 2; existing gangs do not draw a Territory card during step 2. The total number of Territories used still depends on the total number of Players - old and new."

This refers to how to draw Territories in the rulebook page 79. To summarize, make a deck consisting of 1 House specific Territory for each House represented in the campaign (regardless of the how many gangs of that House participates in the campaign). Then randomize the rest of the Territories.

However, existing gangs do not draw a Territory card during step 2. However, no gangs really "draw" cards in any steps? The drawing of cards is done for the purpose of generating a territory deck, not for gangs to draw them?

This is also referenced in "SEMI_PERPETUAL DOMINION CAMPAIGNS" under Dominator Triump Benefit:

"The gang gains an extra starting Territory, chosen at random from all territories after each player has chosen their starting territory."

Do gangs choose a starting territory? I thought the rules said that gangs only start with a single Settlement territory.
 
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KuStrife

Juve
Jun 4, 2018
27
48
13
Granada, España
Yeah, I had the same issue when skimming through these rules. Probably on first draft of Dominion it was a random territory instead of a settlement, they realized that half the territories have no income, and changed it. But no one told the WD guy.

I'm just delighted on how these rules start with 'To play a perpetual campaing, just keep playing dominion campaigns'. These people get paid for writing this content.
 
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TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
Dec 29, 2017
2,045
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Kristiansand
Yeah that makes total sense. The authors don't seem to have played the game. The bad part about this is, since it is White Dwarf content, it will NEVER be FAQ'ed, updated or fixed directly. Just look at previous White Dwarf articles, most if not all had varying degrees of inconsistencies, problems and contradictions (Genestealer, Chaos, Bounty Hunter, scenarios). The good part is, some of the previous White Dwarf articles has eventually been republished in books or pdfs, where some of these problems have been fixed or balanced.

I think in best case, this is nothing but a draft of something possibly better to come in the future.
 

almic85

Gang Hero
Oct 30, 2014
859
1,351
113
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
I think that the underdog rules being added into the next book release (with a few clarifications/amendments) is the best case scenario.

I am a little confused on the text written for refreshing territories:

"Only new gangs are counted for the purpose of generating territories during steps 1 and 2; existing gangs do not draw a Territory card during step 2. The total number of Territories used still depends on the total number of Players - old and new."

This refers to how to draw Territories in the rulebook page 79. To summarize, make a deck consisting of 1 House specific Territory for each House represented in the campaign (regardless of the how many gangs of that House participates in the campaign). Then randomize the rest of the Territories.

However, existing gangs do not draw a Territory card during step 2. However, no gangs really "draw" cards in any steps? The drawing of cards is done for the purpose of generating a territory deck, not for gangs to draw them?

This is also referenced in "SEMI_PERPETUAL DOMINION CAMPAIGNS" under Dominator Triump Benefit:

"The gang gains an extra starting Territory, chosen at random from all territories after each player has chosen their starting territory."

Do gangs choose a starting territory? I thought the rules said that gangs only start with a single Settlement territory.
The reference to step 2 means that when generating house specific territories to add to the board you should only do so for new gangs.

The dominator triumph actually lets a gang start with an additional territory.
 

TopsyKretts

Hive Guilder
Dec 29, 2017
2,045
1,719
138
Kristiansand
Yes the dominator gives an extra territory, but the weird part is after other gangs have selected their first. No gangs select territories, they start with Settlement and nothing else.

Same with refreshing territories. As you describe it makes sense. Gangs drawing territories does not.
 

almic85

Gang Hero
Oct 30, 2014
859
1,351
113
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
It’s just poor English writing skills on the part of the author.

Their intent is obviously that you should create new territories for the new gangs only, while keeping the total number of territories aligned with the total number of gangs.

They could have also intended to allow new gangs to start with a settlement plus another territory to give them a boost, but if they did it got dropped along the way and not corrected in the final document.

I can’t remember if they talk about removing territories if a gang leaves the ongoing campaign though.
 

almic85

Gang Hero
Oct 30, 2014
859
1,351
113
Palmerston, ACT, Australia
Create new House specific territories for new gangs you mean?
Well a new gang should mean three new territories are created. Usually if it is the only gang of it’s house this would mean one of the three territories should be a house specific territory.

Similarly if a gang leaves the number of territories should reduce by 3.