The only mention I have found where you are told to roll hits sequentially is in the stray shot rule. This is required if you shoot rapid fire, then your multiple shots can potentially drop many targets, and would otherwise all hit one target.
Melta trait and close combat
- Thread starter Sump Thing
- Start date
I'm not sure I understand how you think True Grit works. Let's take e few examples:
Let's say we have 3 wounding unsaved D1 hits on a W1 fighter with True Grit.
You think you should make one Injury roll with 4 Injury dice, discard one of those dice and apply the 3 others, correct?
I think that you are supposed to make 3 Injury rolls with 2 injury dice each, and for each roll discard one dice and apply the other.
Now, let's say we have 3 wounding unsaved D2 hits on a W1 fighter with True Grit.
You thing you should make one Injury roll with 5 Injury dice.
I think that you make 3 Injury rolls with 1 injury die each.
Did I understand you correctly?
I think the way True Grit is worded, as well as the fact that there are only 3 injury dice of each colour (and that the maximum Damage characteristics among all weapons happens to be 3) supports my interpretation.
Edit: the old rulebook, albeit incorrect, was clearer on the Injury roll/injury dice thingy:
Let's say we have 3 wounding unsaved D1 hits on a W1 fighter with True Grit.
You think you should make one Injury roll with 4 Injury dice, discard one of those dice and apply the 3 others, correct?
I think that you are supposed to make 3 Injury rolls with 2 injury dice each, and for each roll discard one dice and apply the other.
Now, let's say we have 3 wounding unsaved D2 hits on a W1 fighter with True Grit.
You thing you should make one Injury roll with 5 Injury dice.
I think that you make 3 Injury rolls with 1 injury die each.
Did I understand you correctly?
I think the way True Grit is worded, as well as the fact that there are only 3 injury dice of each colour (and that the maximum Damage characteristics among all weapons happens to be 3) supports my interpretation.
Edit: the old rulebook, albeit incorrect, was clearer on the Injury roll/injury dice thingy:
Last edited:
I suppose its easier to describe the way I interpret it, as follows:
You inflict 3 D1 wounds on a fighter (true grit), rolling two injury dice for each wound at D1, discarding one for each.
In a situation where you are making 3 D2 hits, you would make 3 injury rolls.
I think that's what you are describing in your understanding too.
I was under the impression that you were describing something like:
You make three wounds at D2, (true grit not really relevant but lets assume they have it) roll 3 injury dice, but individually for each wound. If the first roll is OOA, you don't roll the other 2.
Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying, but if that is what you meant, I would say that's incorrect and you would roll all three injury dice at the same time, potentially giving three OOA results.
If that's not what you meant then hopefully that clears up the misunderstanding.
You inflict 3 D1 wounds on a fighter (true grit), rolling two injury dice for each wound at D1, discarding one for each.
In a situation where you are making 3 D2 hits, you would make 3 injury rolls.
I think that's what you are describing in your understanding too.
I was under the impression that you were describing something like:
You make three wounds at D2, (true grit not really relevant but lets assume they have it) roll 3 injury dice, but individually for each wound. If the first roll is OOA, you don't roll the other 2.
Perhaps I misinterpreted what you were saying, but if that is what you meant, I would say that's incorrect and you would roll all three injury dice at the same time, potentially giving three OOA results.
If that's not what you meant then hopefully that clears up the misunderstanding.
No, you interpret me correctly.
I think that 3 D1 wounds should be treated differently than 1 D3 wound.
The former is 3 Injury rolls of 1 die each, while the latter is 1 Injury roll of 3 dice. Only the latter can result in multiple Lasting injuries, because you only roll multiple times on the table when a single Injury roll gives multiple OoA results.
I think that 3 D1 wounds should be treated differently than 1 D3 wound.
The former is 3 Injury rolls of 1 die each, while the latter is 1 Injury roll of 3 dice. Only the latter can result in multiple Lasting injuries, because you only roll multiple times on the table when a single Injury roll gives multiple OoA results.
Ok, that's clearer. I'm curious as to why you think 3xD1 should be treated differently to 1xD3, as I don't think the rules make a distinction. They say to make the rolls for additional damage regardless, so you would still roll multiple lasting injuries. You make all your wound rolls at the same time, so the amount of damage points inflicted is already set in stone, once the armour saves are made. If you choose to roll 3xD1 injury dice individually or not, you still need to roll all of them. This can still result in multiple OOA results, just as 1xD3 could.
What am I missing to come up with another interpretation?
What am I missing to come up with another interpretation?
Well, just because you make several rolls at the same time doesn't mean they aren't separate rolls.
The interaction with True grit, for instance, makes 1 D3 wound very different from 3 D1 wound as you will roll 2 Injury dice for the former and a total of 6 for the latter (keeping only 3). Unless you have access to 3 different kind of injury dice, it's impossible to roll everything at once.
Now, you could argue that, even if the rolls are separate, all the result should be applied. However, the Lasting injury rules only instruct to roll multiple D66 "if an injury roll results in more than one Out of Action result" (singular). If you have several Injury rolls that each results in one OoA result, I don't think this rule applies.
There is a need to have some kind of sequence for wounds resolution in other cases too.
For instance, say an Ambot makes a Fight action against a W3 fighter using the ranged profile of its Tunneling Claw (D2, Melta, Sidearm) for one attack and the melee profile of its other Tunneling Claw (also D2, Melee) for the rest. If you get 1 wound for the ranged profile and 1 wound for the melee profile, you need to decide which one will be applied first, as it changes the outcome (the first wound applied will reduce the fighter to W1, and the second will either give you 2 OoA results or make you roll 2 Injury dice, depending on what you choose to apply first).
The interaction with True grit, for instance, makes 1 D3 wound very different from 3 D1 wound as you will roll 2 Injury dice for the former and a total of 6 for the latter (keeping only 3). Unless you have access to 3 different kind of injury dice, it's impossible to roll everything at once.
Now, you could argue that, even if the rolls are separate, all the result should be applied. However, the Lasting injury rules only instruct to roll multiple D66 "if an injury roll results in more than one Out of Action result" (singular). If you have several Injury rolls that each results in one OoA result, I don't think this rule applies.
There is a need to have some kind of sequence for wounds resolution in other cases too.
For instance, say an Ambot makes a Fight action against a W3 fighter using the ranged profile of its Tunneling Claw (D2, Melta, Sidearm) for one attack and the melee profile of its other Tunneling Claw (also D2, Melee) for the rest. If you get 1 wound for the ranged profile and 1 wound for the melee profile, you need to decide which one will be applied first, as it changes the outcome (the first wound applied will reduce the fighter to W1, and the second will either give you 2 OoA results or make you roll 2 Injury dice, depending on what you choose to apply first).
Last edited:
Compendium pg 69:
This indicates that each hit is handled separately, right? The Inflict Damage section speaks to a single weapon hit, but it might just be reading into the language a bit.
This indicates that each hit is handled separately, right? The Inflict Damage section speaks to a single weapon hit, but it might just be reading into the language a bit.
That's how I read it initially, but then I realized that resolving one hit completely before the next could lead to the Wound roll for the second hit being altered by the Injury roll of the first one (if the first hit results into a flesh wound, the target's Toughess characteristics is reduced). This doesn't feel right either as it prevents fast rolling.
That's my point, all rolls have to be made together for each "phase" of rolling. Nothing in the inflict damage situation suggests you should disregard all the other successful wounds made. It does say they should be made if a weapon has additional points of damage inflicted. This could be from one powerful hit or multiple weaker hits. D3x1 is different from D1x3 in the number of injury rolls made, but they are not resolved differently.
I think that the Lasting injury rules do care whether the multiple OoA results come from the same Injury roll or not. If I'm correct, D1x3 cannot provoke multiple lasting injuries, but D3x1 can.
It's very fuzzy because what an "Injury roll" is is not clearly defined in this rulebook (it was a bit clearer in the original one)
Also, you need to have some kind of sequencing for resolving wounds, especially for CC attacks that can be made with two different weapons at once, the target's Wounds characteristics that reduce the number of Injury dice rolled, and traits like Melta or Pulverize that can mess with how Injury rolls are handled.
Last edited:
I think the way it goes is like this: Let's suppose a hit from Heavy Bolter with Rapid Fire and Damage 2.
1) The to-hit roll is successful, and the Firepower Dice result in a total of 4 hits.
2) 4 separate wound rolls would be made, and let's say 3 are successful.
3) Target rolls 3 separate Armor Saves, and let's say 1 is successful.
4) The Target has now been hit, and wounded, by 2 "hits"
5) Let's say the Target is a Champion and has 2 Wounds.
6) The first hit, with a Damage of 2, takes the fighter down to 0 Wounds.
7) For the Damage that takes him from 1 down to 0, he rolls 1 Injury Die - let's say Flesh Wound.
-Now, which hits cause a wound has already been determined, so dropping Toughness by 1 doesn't effect the remaining rolls
8) The 2 Damage from the second hit, now results in 2 Injury Dice - let's say Flesh Wound and Serious Injury
9) He's now down with a Serious Injury and has 2 Flesh Wounds, so he's left with a Toughness of 1.
10) He's going to go OOA eventually because every End Phase he rolls a Recovery Die: if FW, he drops to 0 Toughness and goes OOA; if SI he stays down; if OOA, he's OOA. Best he can hope for is to survive until the end of the battle and not "Succumb to Injuries"
At least, I think I got that right...
1) The to-hit roll is successful, and the Firepower Dice result in a total of 4 hits.
2) 4 separate wound rolls would be made, and let's say 3 are successful.
3) Target rolls 3 separate Armor Saves, and let's say 1 is successful.
4) The Target has now been hit, and wounded, by 2 "hits"
5) Let's say the Target is a Champion and has 2 Wounds.
6) The first hit, with a Damage of 2, takes the fighter down to 0 Wounds.
7) For the Damage that takes him from 1 down to 0, he rolls 1 Injury Die - let's say Flesh Wound.
-Now, which hits cause a wound has already been determined, so dropping Toughness by 1 doesn't effect the remaining rolls
8) The 2 Damage from the second hit, now results in 2 Injury Dice - let's say Flesh Wound and Serious Injury
9) He's now down with a Serious Injury and has 2 Flesh Wounds, so he's left with a Toughness of 1.
10) He's going to go OOA eventually because every End Phase he rolls a Recovery Die: if FW, he drops to 0 Toughness and goes OOA; if SI he stays down; if OOA, he's OOA. Best he can hope for is to survive until the end of the battle and not "Succumb to Injuries"
At least, I think I got that right...
@Thorgor the only thing in the rules that explicitly separates attack rolls being made together is if the attacker is using 2 weapons and/or attacking 2 fighters.
In all other instances all hit rolls, wound rolls, armour saves and injury rolls are each made at the same time in that order.
I haven’t yet got the new rulebook but unless true grit has been updated it doesn’t work with how injury rolls are calculated. It still referenced reducing the number of injury dice compared to the weapons damage characteristic which was erratad out ages ago.
In all other instances all hit rolls, wound rolls, armour saves and injury rolls are each made at the same time in that order.
I haven’t yet got the new rulebook but unless true grit has been updated it doesn’t work with how injury rolls are calculated. It still referenced reducing the number of injury dice compared to the weapons damage characteristic which was erratad out ages ago.
I don't dispute that they are made at the same time.
What I'm saying is that:
- each hit results in a separate Injury roll (of 3, 2, 1 or best of 2 dice, depending on attack Damage, target remaining Wounds and whether or not the target has True Grit)
- you can't resolve them all at once. It's necessary to resolve them in sequence.
- once you have resolved an Injury roll that results in the target being OoA, the remaining ones do nothing
Let me quote it once again then (that's from the new rulebook, of course):
It assumes the target only has 0 or 1 Wound left, but it's otherwise correct.True Grit said:
Also, again, direct quote from the lasting injuries rules:
This rule is only used when a single Injury roll results in multiple OoA results.
Why cant you resolve them all at once though? That isn't prohibited, I do it all the time, you just roll different coloured dice. You're arguing the necessity to roll separately but nothing tells us resolve them separately. It does tell us to resolve the rolls for all remaining damage points. Admittedly it does say "for that weapon", but as all hits and wounds are rolled together, damage is already done so cant be discarded.
You are rolling separately, but only for purposes of differentiating the rolls, all hits are still resolved in the same "phase", before the wounds are resolved. If you roll off separately in the way you are describing, you should resolve one hand weapon's damage before the other weapon makes its attacks. If not, the additional hand weapon can still inflict extra OOA results. How would you pick which weapons damage is resolved first? Regardless, that's not how the rolls are done, all hits are made, then all wounds rolls are made, and then all injuries are resolved. Even if you roll them separately, that doesn't suggest you don't roll them all.
If somebody can point me to any text that says additional already inflicted damage points should be discarded beyond 0 wounds, I will change my position. As far as I can see, there is nothing written that tells us to disregard extra wounding rolls. Something in the back of my mind is telling me this was confirmed in a twitch broadcast, but I cant recall when.
You are rolling separately, but only for purposes of differentiating the rolls, all hits are still resolved in the same "phase", before the wounds are resolved. If you roll off separately in the way you are describing, you should resolve one hand weapon's damage before the other weapon makes its attacks. If not, the additional hand weapon can still inflict extra OOA results. How would you pick which weapons damage is resolved first? Regardless, that's not how the rolls are done, all hits are made, then all wounds rolls are made, and then all injuries are resolved. Even if you roll them separately, that doesn't suggest you don't roll them all.
If somebody can point me to any text that says additional already inflicted damage points should be discarded beyond 0 wounds, I will change my position. As far as I can see, there is nothing written that tells us to disregard extra wounding rolls. Something in the back of my mind is telling me this was confirmed in a twitch broadcast, but I cant recall when.
I don't know how you are supposed to do it, but I know it is necessary to do so. I've already provided several scenarios above where the end result changes depending on the order damage is applied.
For instance, say you have 1 D2 wound with Melta and 1 D2 wound without Melta on a W2 fighter. How many injury dice do you roll and why?
So the True Grit rule hasn't changed from it's previous iteration and is still worded to work with the damage dice as if the number of injury dice you roll is equal to the damage value of the weapon rather than the new rule. Multi wound models are common enough (50% of most gangs) that they probably should have reworded the example.
There is a separate issue that GW seemingly interchange plurals in their wording (die vs dice and roll vs rolls) which causes issues such as this.
There should be two main schools of thought on the sequence for making an attack. Broadly the two schools of thought are resolve all hits one at a time or resolve all hits simultaneously.
I will use Close Combat below as shooting is simpler as you don't shoot two guns at the same time, but you do hit with both close combat weapons at the same time (you resolve step 5 of the close combat sequence fully before moving to step 6). It is also worth noting here that you make a single Hit Roll with multiple dice for each weapon you are using (Each die is not a separate Hit Roll).
So if we start from step 6 of close combat titled Resolving Hits. Before the start of this step you will have rolled all of your attack dice for each weapon and worked out how many hits each weapon has made on the target.
Here is where you split to either resolving one hit at a time or resolving all hits simultaneously.
If you are resolving each hit one at a time then take each die that has hit and follow the sequence (Make a Wound Roll, Opponent makes a Save Roll, Inflict Damage). This will mean that the result of the first hit will affect all subsequent hits, which I am sure we all think is wrong. (as an aside this is what 40k and Kill Team does, and is why Kill Team requires separate Save Rolls to be made for each successful wound and also has a rule that states to ignore any further wounds once the first injury roll is resolved).
If you are resolving each hit simultaneously then you would resolve all of your dice for each weapon for step 1 Make the Wound Roll, then move to resolve all of those dice for step 2 Opponent makes a Save Roll, Then resolve all dice for step 3 Inflict Damage. This can practically be done by either rolling different colour dice for each weapon at the same time, or by rolling each weapon separately but applying all of the results.
With the posts above what you are suggesting is that we resolve all dice simultaneously up until we get to the Inflict Damage step of Resolving Hits and at that particular stage only we stop and roll each die separately just so that we can get the maximum benefit of the True Grit skill and minimum negative of the melta trait.
It is unnecessary to resolve each wound in sequence (and the actual sequence is irrelevant) when you can apply ALL the results of an attack at the same time.
To use your example above "say you have 1 D2 wound with Melta and 1 D2 wound without Melta on a W2 fighter. How many injury dice do you roll and why?"
If you were to resolve each hit separately you would first need to decide the sequence of the rolls (which is not covered in the rules) and you could end up with one of two results depending on how you choose to sequence the attacks.
Option A - If the Melta gun goes first the fighter is OOA, no further rolls.
Option B - If the other weapon goes first then it causes 1 injury roll, resolve this roll. If OOA then no further rolls, otherwise resolve Melta weapon. Target goes Out of Action twice due to melta.
If you were to resolve them simultaneously then Melta causes 2 damage, and the other attack causes 2 damage. The fighter has suffered Resolve the injury roll, if it is another OOA then two lasting injuries occur. Either 2 OOA and 1 injury roll gets made or 1 OOA and 2 injury rolls get made.
Dammit this was a long post to prove myself wrong.
So the moral here is that the order of the damage inflicted is important, but is not covered by the rules.
I can see a question being sent off to GW for inclusion in their FAQ, but I can guess that there answer will be that the person who has caused the damage gets to resolve the order in which they are resolved(based on how they handle it in other systems).
There is a separate issue that GW seemingly interchange plurals in their wording (die vs dice and roll vs rolls) which causes issues such as this.
There should be two main schools of thought on the sequence for making an attack. Broadly the two schools of thought are resolve all hits one at a time or resolve all hits simultaneously.
I will use Close Combat below as shooting is simpler as you don't shoot two guns at the same time, but you do hit with both close combat weapons at the same time (you resolve step 5 of the close combat sequence fully before moving to step 6). It is also worth noting here that you make a single Hit Roll with multiple dice for each weapon you are using (Each die is not a separate Hit Roll).
So if we start from step 6 of close combat titled Resolving Hits. Before the start of this step you will have rolled all of your attack dice for each weapon and worked out how many hits each weapon has made on the target.
Here is where you split to either resolving one hit at a time or resolving all hits simultaneously.
If you are resolving each hit one at a time then take each die that has hit and follow the sequence (Make a Wound Roll, Opponent makes a Save Roll, Inflict Damage). This will mean that the result of the first hit will affect all subsequent hits, which I am sure we all think is wrong. (as an aside this is what 40k and Kill Team does, and is why Kill Team requires separate Save Rolls to be made for each successful wound and also has a rule that states to ignore any further wounds once the first injury roll is resolved).
If you are resolving each hit simultaneously then you would resolve all of your dice for each weapon for step 1 Make the Wound Roll, then move to resolve all of those dice for step 2 Opponent makes a Save Roll, Then resolve all dice for step 3 Inflict Damage. This can practically be done by either rolling different colour dice for each weapon at the same time, or by rolling each weapon separately but applying all of the results.
With the posts above what you are suggesting is that we resolve all dice simultaneously up until we get to the Inflict Damage step of Resolving Hits and at that particular stage only we stop and roll each die separately just so that we can get the maximum benefit of the True Grit skill and minimum negative of the melta trait.
It is unnecessary to resolve each wound in sequence (and the actual sequence is irrelevant) when you can apply ALL the results of an attack at the same time.
To use your example above "say you have 1 D2 wound with Melta and 1 D2 wound without Melta on a W2 fighter. How many injury dice do you roll and why?"
If you were to resolve each hit separately you would first need to decide the sequence of the rolls (which is not covered in the rules) and you could end up with one of two results depending on how you choose to sequence the attacks.
Option A - If the Melta gun goes first the fighter is OOA, no further rolls.
Option B - If the other weapon goes first then it causes 1 injury roll, resolve this roll. If OOA then no further rolls, otherwise resolve Melta weapon. Target goes Out of Action twice due to melta.
If you were to resolve them simultaneously then Melta causes 2 damage, and the other attack causes 2 damage. The fighter has suffered Resolve the injury roll, if it is another OOA then two lasting injuries occur. Either 2 OOA and 1 injury roll gets made or 1 OOA and 2 injury rolls get made.
Dammit this was a long post to prove myself wrong.
So the moral here is that the order of the damage inflicted is important, but is not covered by the rules.
I can see a question being sent off to GW for inclusion in their FAQ, but I can guess that there answer will be that the person who has caused the damage gets to resolve the order in which they are resolved(based on how they handle it in other systems).
If we are talking about guns (as you mentioned melta), this is clearer. If you are shooting two pistols with twin guns blazing, you do fully resolve one gun attack before the other, so there is no problem here. In the open, you could shoot either first, as you could still shoot the pinned model if the first didn't take them out. If they were in cover, you would shoot the melta weapon first, as they would be hidden if the first shot failed to kill and made them prone.
Melta isn't on any CC weapons as far as I can tell so wouldn't cause an issue in close combat. In the resolve hits stage, you would have inflicted one wound for each weapon, as each definitely hit. You would then get one auto injury dice, plus two additional dice for the extra 2D. Three injury dice total, all rolled together (potentially giving 3 OOA results).
Melta isn't on any CC weapons as far as I can tell so wouldn't cause an issue in close combat. In the resolve hits stage, you would have inflicted one wound for each weapon, as each definitely hit. You would then get one auto injury dice, plus two additional dice for the extra 2D. Three injury dice total, all rolled together (potentially giving 3 OOA results).
I agree that shooting is much simpler as you only shoot one gun at time (even with gunslinger and fast shot) and fully resolve it before moving to the next shot.There are probably a few corner cases that could crop up with new rules (random damage weapons could cause a few issues).
Should this be the way to resolve any CC issues (with any weird rule interactions) though?
Resolve all the hits for a single weapon before moving to the next weapon would just leave the questions of how you choose the order of attacks and if you resolve subsequent weapons damage if the target is taken OOA by the first weapon.
Should this be the way to resolve any CC issues (with any weird rule interactions) though?
Resolve all the hits for a single weapon before moving to the next weapon would just leave the questions of how you choose the order of attacks and if you resolve subsequent weapons damage if the target is taken OOA by the first weapon.
The Ambot has a Sidearm with Melta, so Melta can be an issue in CC. Also, Pulverize has a similar problem.
Why is it random 2 injury dice and 1 auto-OoA and not the other way around? Why did you choose to resolve the Melta hit before the other? Since you resolved the Melta hit before the other, why do you continue resolving stuff since the target is already OoA?
I've never noticed before that Twin Gun Blazing makes you fully resolve one attack before the next. Interesting.
Similar threads
