Minimal changes for maximum change?

[JawRippa]

There were two schools of thought here; make the charge distance M*2, or make the charge distance M+D6. We didn't manage to come to a consensus on which was better... Essentially I wanted people to generally be able to charge 8-12" as I felt this matched well with short range weapons. M*2 would almost always allow an 8" charge, but it was also capable of going well beyond 12". M+D6 made it less likely to significantly overrun 12", but you would often fall below 8" too.

We made it M*2", but capped charges at 12". You can still make use of M" above 6", since you can engage enemies with Move (as long as you follow the shortest path). So you can either charge+fight someone within 12" or engage someone, say, 18" away if you have a crazy high movement. To compensate for this, we made it so when you Retreat(basic), only you initiative check matters, not the opponent's: if you succeed, you move M" away, otherwise you get slapped with reaction attacks.

This change was trying to address a few things I don't like about melee. First is that Reaction Attacks essentially give you free actions; as long as people keep charging, you can get as many fight actions as you want. Second (and third) is that Reaction Attacks mean that combat monsters can't effectively be engaged except by other combat monsters. If you charge a ganger in and fight, they're essentially dead. This leads into the third one, where charging a ganger in and not taking the fight action becomes a sensible move tactically as it lets you get assists for your own combat monsters... But I don't want that. I want people to fight.

Some trends emerged over the course of the tests that I found really interesting. People found that you couldn't just send in a melee monster and start blending; whilst getting into melee is easier now, the lack of free CdG means you can often need another fighter's activation to finish the job.

I like your analysis here. Melee blenders are indeed oppressive towards weaker fighters if they can attack back indefinitely. I would not completely remove reaction attacks though, as it makes interaction very one-sided. If you wanted to let blenders get mobbed, allow reaction attacks occur only once per round. Some bookeeping will be needed, sure, but I think it is bearable; this way you could either bait reaction attacks with trash fighters charges (to follow up with stronger fighter charge) or stack allies for assistance/interference while getting free attacks (should the enemy decide to keep reaction attacks specifically against your would-be charger).

What I'm not a fan of:

• Pin being a 3" reduction feels weird; does this mean that standing up is a free action, just gives a -3" movement penalty once? If the goal is to allow charges from pinned state, then allow exactly that, just limit it to M". Very easy to remember and play out.
• Coup-De-Grace should be a part of charging in, otherwise it is no different to shooting.
• There is not 'fix' for the fact that high Weapon Skill or number of attacks do not matter when you are being charged. I want a lasting injury of -1WS not to be a 'meh, whatever' for a ranged fighter, but actually make them think 'hm, if I'm not getting a bionic arm, I won't be survivimg a charge even by mediocre ganger'

 

[Jayward]

No, getting up from pinning is not a free action; it has to happen as part of a move. If you word it as "Stand up as a free action but suffer a -3 penalty to your movement" then heavy weapons can stand up for free and then shoot, essentially ignoring the penalty. It's also not just about the charges; if you are a shooter who has been pinned you could move a bit when you stand up, and faster fighters can move further. I think that's an improvement where a stimmed-up MV7 person is better at moving than a Goliath with a leg injury, but it's not a hill I'm prepared to die on.

With regards to the CdG, don't forget that this version has no accuracy bonuses on ranged weapons and most of them are damage 1. All melee weapons have kept their damage ratings, though, so melee tends to result in a lot more injury dice being rolled (outside of some heavy weapons).

And the free CdG is the single biggest determinant of how lethal a combat is going to be. Here are the chances of taking a fighter OoA in melee:

Injury dice rolled:	1	2	3	4
Free CdG	67%	89%	97%	99%
No Free CdG	17%	31%	42%	52%

I'd much rather have this gentler progression of lethality given that a juve with a D2 club can hit 4 wounds into someone on the charge.

I get what you mean on the last point, but it's tricky to do without making the game more complicated. Best option I can think of is to remove the Retreat action so people can't leave combat; that way if a shooting champion does get stuck in melee they need to fight their way out, and so the WS becomes relevant. I've literally just pulled that out of the air now, but it does fit my criteria of a simple change.

EDIT: Removing the reload action might have a similar effect; eventually the guns would run dry and you'd have to resort to melee

 

[Psyan]

If you want to make it possible to charge from being pinned there is a simpler solution: Make Charge a Basic action. Either 2+d3 or 3+d3 inches. Pinned fighters can use a Stand Up Basic action and then Charge and fighters could still Move (Simple) and Charge (Basic) with faster fighters still having a longer charge range. They could even Shoot (Basic), Charge (Basic), if close enough.

 

[JawRippa]

If you want to make it possible to charge from being pinned there is a simpler solution: Make Charge a Basic action. Either 2+d3 or 3+d3 inches. Pinned fighters can use a Stand Up Basic action and then Charge and fighters could still Move (Simple) and Charge (Basic) with faster fighters still having a longer charge range. They could even Shoot (Basic), Charge (Basic), if close enough.

Then you can use charge to cover further distance than Move+Move by Move+Charge from other edge of table.

 

[Psyan]

Then you can use charge to cover further distance than Move+Move by Move+Charge from other edge of table.

3-5 or 4-6 inches... or make it 1+d3 for 2-4 inches. A Goliath or VS might go further with Move/Charge than Move/Move, but most other gangs won't.

 

[JawRippa]

3-5 or 4-6 inches... or make it 1+d3 for 2-4 inches. A Goliath or VS might go further with Move/Charge than Move/Move, but most other gangs won't.

It feels wrong to gain any distance advantage when not doing Move+Move. Even if the benefit is just 1", it feels gamey to charge at something 24"+ away to travel an additional distance.

 

[Psyan]

Agreed. Maybe you don't get the +x if your charge fails? You just move d3 and then stop.

 

[Warpman]

Your proposal has merit but should be separated from Charge to avoid abuse
A separate Engage action that is just a move that lets you get into melee, but gives no additional distance nor attacks, just for the sake of tying up the foe should suffice
Charge is basically 2+ actions worth, its move, attack, and additional bonuses, cant give all that to a single action

 

[Psyan]

So you're saying Charge (Basic) should be: Move (M) + attack, no further bonuses to movement? That works for me.

 

[Xisor_of_Karak_Izor]

Necromundamancy, perhaps, but would adding a "Desperate Charge" action be viable? E.g. one that can only be undertaken whilst pinned and prone? Needs a Cl(?) check, otherwise you remain pinned and prone. Success means you can do a half-Mv +d3" and fight like a charge?

Is there something to be learned from WH Underworlds, by tweaking the "support/assist" rules to be a deal more generous? (So ganging up on someone's a +1 to you, -1 for them. But two gangs in a scrum/rumble? Everyone's getting a +1 and it'll be very violent.)

It might intensify the potency of templates by clumping people up for support, but (personally!) I feel templates/blasts need a more meaningful hit roll in there too.

E.g. Flamer templates can attack everyone hit, but you still have to roll the to-hit dice. The template's and blast markers are more about who you can try to hit rather than just "you hit" that person.

 

[JawRippa]

Necromundamancy, perhaps, but would adding a "Desperate Charge" action be viable? E.g. one that can only be undertaken whilst pinned and prone? Needs a Cl(?) check, otherwise you remain pinned and prone. Success means you can do a half-Mv +d3" and fight like a charge?

Is there something to be learned from WH Underworlds, by tweaking the "support/assist" rules to be a deal more generous? (So ganging up on someone's a +1 to you, -1 for them. But two gangs in a scrum/rumble? Everyone's getting a +1 and it'll be very violent.)

It might intensify the potency of templates by clumping people up for support, but (personally!) I feel templates/blasts need a more meaningful hit roll in there too.

E.g. Flamer templates can attack everyone hit, but you still have to roll the to-hit dice. The template's and blast markers are more about who you can try to hit rather than just "you hit" that person.

We've just made it M" charge and fight move, no Cool needed. Not broken at all imo.
The threat range on that action is small enough that anyone can simply run out of the threat range, even slowest gangs like Van Saar. And I think that lack of threat when melee fighters are pinned is one of the main things which make melee unviable.

 

[Jayward]

Not broken at all, no.

The thing to bear in mind with Necromunda is that it's very heavily slanted in favour of Shooting engagements; most fighters can charge 8" max without help from wargear or boosts, and there are no ranged weapons with a shorter range than that. Even in JawRippa's rules where charging is more often 10-12" you're still talking about being lower than the short range of most Basic ranged weapons

And I think that lack of threat when melee fighters are pinned is one of the main things which make melee unviable.

I wholeheartedly agree with this point.